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[Suggestion] Improve Rhodok one-handed weapons

Should the military pick and morningstar be reworked?

  • Yes, they need to get better compared to the first weapons.

    Votes: 36 81.8%
  • No, I enjoy using them as they are.

    Votes: 6 13.6%
  • I don't play Rhodok infantry but want an option to vote anyways.

    Votes: 2 4.5%

  • Total voters
    44

Currently viewing this thread:

Thyr

Knight
M&BWB
First off, note that this thread is about the normal one-handed weapons (not polearms, everyone knows how powerful polearms are in the hands of Rhodok players).

I think most players will agree that the best non-polearm onehanders for Rhodok players are the Fighting Pick and the Club with Spikes - the default weapon and the second cheapest weapon available. Unfortunately, this isn't only due to the low price point (which I wouldn't mind, I could understand why people prefer sticking to cheap weapons), but simply because the more expensive and supposedly better alternatives, the Military Pick and Morningstar (one of the best weapons in Native), are pretty much worthless in Warband.

The Military Pick has only two more points to damage compared to the fighting pick (which is two tiers below it), but it's even 4 points slower and costs 142 denar just to get, making it pretty much a useless purchase (even moreso if compared to the Club with Spikes, which is also more versatile being an insanely fast one-and-a-half-weapon and the added ability to knock down with swings).

It's even worse with the Morningstar, which costs over 200 denar, provides another 2 extra points of piercing damage compared to the Military Pick... (which is pretty fair, at least compared to the first 2 extra points of damage the Military pick provides, which cost 150 denari)
...with the huge downside that it's the poor, neglected cripple among weapons. A speed rating of just 75 (!) makes this weapon so useless that it isn't even funny - for every other purpose than ambushing an extremely heavily armored infantry unit from behind or in groups (and even then, there's better weapons for these scenarios).
If your shield breaks with this weapon on a manual server you can pretty much resign too since its almost too slow to even block most strikes from faster weapons in time, let alone ever hitting back. What's the point of a weapon that can pierce through armor if you never get to hit something?

In terms of the Military Pick, the reduced speed compared to the Fighting Pick really needs to go if its supposed to be an alternative to the cheaper two weapons, or - a more interesting alternative in my opinion - it should be replaced by a one-handed Military Hammer with pretty much the same stats but blunt damage, then it'd have the added benefit of being able to knock enemies down and would be well balanced compared to both the cheaper two weapons as well as a possibly fixed morning star.

I've read some interesting suggestions concerning the morningstar, like making it a one-and-a-half-weapon with a much higher speed rating, which, after some thinking about it, sounds pretty fair to me, making it look like the the Military Pick/Hammer is the logical upgrade for Fighting Pick fans, while the 1.5handed Morningstar is an upgraded Club with Spikes (both literally and metaphorical). Otherwise either increasing its range further (so you can actually hit people with good footwork when they miss their strikes) or simply making its speed value less ridiculous could help to, but it's certain something needs to be done with these weapons, as they hardly ever get to see any play.

If you have any other suggestions, feel free to share them!

tl;dr: Read the title :razz:
 

Attacksmurfen

Sergeant
WF&S
I think adding +2-3 to speed to the military pick should make it good enough.
The morningstar, I've checked up on that kind of weapons and I think it could be made like a "big brother" to the spiked club.
That is, a 1/2handed weapon that can stab too.
It could use a new model as well, I think something likes the image in the link below should suit it (that's a historical piece btw).

http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/displayimage.php?pid=1997&fullsize=1
 

Corinthian Hoplite

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWB
Attacksmurfen said:
I think adding +2-3 to speed to the military pick should make it good enough.
The morningstar, I've checked up on that kind of weapons and I think it could be made like a "big brother" to the spiked club.
That is, a 1/2handed weapon that can stab too.
It could use a new model as well, I think something likes the image in the link below should suit it (that's a historical piece btw).

http://www.myarmoury.com/albums/displayimage.php?pid=1997&fullsize=1
I support this one.
 

ScientiaExcelsa

Master Knight
M&BWB
Give the Rhodoks a falchion.  They need an option for speed.  The falchion is unique, fits the Rhodokian militia look well, and involves a fighting style distinctive from that of a generic sword.
 

Maximo_khan

Knight
WB
ScientiaExcelsa said:
Give the Rhodoks a falchion.  They need an option for speed.  The falchion is unique, fits the Rhodokian militia look well, and involves a fighting style distinctive from that of a generic sword.

not to rain on anyone parade but falchion is not unique, is basically a saber, which i don't think it would fit rhodok at all. but i do agree that at the moment the club with spike is a better weapon than military pick and morning star. Actually when used 2handed i think is even better than hammers.
therefore i agree that something need to be done about their high tier( read expensive ) weapon.
 

ScientiaExcelsa

Master Knight
M&BWB
Maximo_khan said:
ScientiaExcelsa said:
Give the Rhodoks a falchion.  They need an option for speed.  The falchion is unique, fits the Rhodokian militia look well, and involves a fighting style distinctive from that of a generic sword.

not to rain on anyone parade but falchion is not unique, is basically a saber, which i don't think it would fit rhodok at all. but i do agree that at the moment the club with spike is a better weapon than military pick and morning star. Actually when used 2handed i think is even better than hammers.
therefore i agree that something need to be done about their high tier( read expensive ) weapon.

How is a falchion anything like a saber besides being single-edged?!
 

AoC

Master Knight
ScientiaExcelsa said:
Maximo_khan said:
ScientiaExcelsa said:
Give the Rhodoks a falchion.  They need an option for speed.  The falchion is unique, fits the Rhodokian militia look well, and involves a fighting style distinctive from that of a generic sword.

not to rain on anyone parade but falchion is not unique, is basically a saber, which i don't think it would fit rhodok at all. but i do agree that at the moment the club with spike is a better weapon than military pick and morning star. Actually when used 2handed i think is even better than hammers.
therefore i agree that something need to be done about their high tier( read expensive ) weapon.

How is a falchion anything like a saber besides being single-edged?!
Maximo_khan, answer how ?
 

Maximo_khan

Knight
WB
Relax! i was playing till I crashed. A quick search with google image show the falchion to look just as an heavy sabre we got in game already. but that's not the point, i meant to say rhodok is all about blunt and piercing weapon. I not opposing the idea of giving rhodok a cutting weapon, I'm saying modify the one they already got and are useless/close to is a better idea.
 

DuckSauce

Sergeant at Arms
http://heronarmoury.co.uk/swords/m/main/falchion.jpg

Imo that does look like a sabre, the falchions in M&B are a different type though and look very different
 

Urist

Master Knight
M&BWB
The falchion would fit much better for Vaegir Spearman or Khergit Lancer, so that those guys finally got a non-spear two-handed weapon.
 

AoC

Master Knight
Maximo_khan said:
Relax! i was playing till I crashed. A quick search with google image show the falchion to look just as an heavy sabre we got in game already. but that's not the point, i meant to say rhodok is all about blunt and piercing weapon. I not opposing the idea of giving rhodok a cutting weapon, I'm saying modify the one they already got and are useless/close to is a better idea.

So why rhodok horseman have sword as his default weapon ?

Also Urist, Falchions were not two handed in most cases.

Falchions should be used by swadians, vaegirs and rhodoks imo.
 

Thyr

Knight
M&BWB
Because hitting anything with a pick from horseback is almost impossible, they have too little reach. Anyways, Rhodok horsemen aren't exactly a core Rhodok unit anyways.

While I wouldn't mind another cutting weapon joining the Rhodok infantry arsenal, I think it's more likely the dev's want to improve the weapons we already have and stick with the "one handed Rhodok weapon = piercing/blunt" formula.
 

AoC

Master Knight
Thyr said:
Because hitting anything with a pick from horseback is almost impossible, they have too little reach. Anyways, Rhodok horsemen aren't exactly a core Rhodok unit anyways.

While I wouldn't mind another cutting weapon joining the Rhodok infantry arsenal, I think it's more likely the dev's want to improve the weapons we already have and stick with the "one handed Rhodok weapon = piercing/blunt" formula.
Horseman is rhodok core unit. One of the three core units.
 

ScientiaExcelsa

Master Knight
M&BWB
Maximo_khan said:
Relax! i was playing till I crashed. A quick search with google image show the falchion to look just as an heavy sabre we got in game already. but that's not the point, i meant to say rhodok is all about blunt and piercing weapon. I not opposing the idea of giving rhodok a cutting weapon, I'm saying modify the one they already got and are useless/close to is a better idea.

A falchion was usually shaped a bit more like a machete.  They were popular infantry weapons and archer sidearms.  Because they were such a common lower-class weapon I say they complement the Rhodok "citizen-soldier" look very well.  Rhodoks need a faster 1-handed weapon, blunt or otherwise.  Their large shields do them no good because their attacks are so slow.  It's very hard to fight when outnumbered as a Rhodok spearman.  The falchion answers the speed problem and is fairly powerful, but it's short length means that picks will still be used for greater reach instead of being ignored.
 

Thyr

Knight
M&BWB
Maybe I should have clarified, of course cavalry can be an important part of any Warband strategy involving Rhodoks. I meant cavalry isn't really the defining factor for Rhodoks, so you can't really derive a certain "style" for the faction from them or the type of weapons they're using.

 

ScientiaExcelsa

Master Knight
M&BWB
Thyr said:
Maybe I should have clarified, of course cavalry can be an important part of any Warband strategy involving Rhodoks. I meant cavalry isn't really the defining factor for Rhodoks, so you can't really derive a certain "style" for the faction from them or the type of weapons they're using.

The problem is, Rhodok infantry is rather sub-par right now.  They're winning most of their fights because of their cavalry.  This is why the problem with all their slow, weak 1-handed weapons needs to be rectified.  Right now the spiked club is the best weapon tandem with a shield, and it's supposed to be a hand-and-a-half weapon.
 

Thyr

Knight
M&BWB
I agree, and that pretty much sums up my entire motivation for creating this thread.  :smile:

That's why I'd enjoy buffing the more expensive Rhodok weapons, so they actually get something that's on par with other high-end one-handers and have a motivation to upgrade from the Club with Spikes. Even if they added a falchion though, the Military Pick and Morningstar would still never be used I'm afraid, and I'd rather not trade two weapon slots for one new (albeit useful) one.
 

ScientiaExcelsa

Master Knight
M&BWB
Thyr said:
I agree, and that pretty much sums up my entire motivation for creating this thread.  :smile:

That's why I'd enjoy buffing the more expensive Rhodok weapons, so they actually get something that's on par with other high-end one-handers and have a motivation to upgrade from the Club with Spikes. Even if they added a falchion though, the Military Pick and Morningstar would still never be used I'm afraid, and I'd rather not trade two weapon slots for one new (albeit useful) one.

If the speed of the morningstar was buffed, it would actually be very formidable.  It does a lot of damage to shields and it has an unexpectedly long reach.  That reach would make it a viable alternative to the falchion.  Again, the falchion in M&B is so short that the other, longer weapons would still be used.
 

Berserker Pride

Grandmaster Knight
WB
Making the morningstar hand-and-half with a decent speed two-handed would make it a usable weapon.

  But I think the rhodoks should get access to the military hammer.  It is the best blunt one-handed weapon in native and would be a popular addition to the rhodok arsenal. 
 
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