[Suggestion] Further Nerfs for Horse Archery

[Yoshi Murasaki]

That's true, and it's one of the more challenging components of horse archery skill.  Still, a moving target is much harder to hit than a stationary one.

But no one is stationary. A horse archer will not win a duel versus foot archer. Foot archer can dodge easier, shoot in all directions, is smaller than rider with horse, and has less predictable movement. Foot archer won't stumble accidently on invisible steep hill or hit invisible wall. The only advantage horse archer has is faster movement. But versus foot archers it doesnt matter, because you're not going to charge him and melee foot archer.

20 nord archers will beat 20 khergit HA on almost every map. Try it.

 

[Teala]

It's in the suggestion Teala. Also, are you not supposed to be at work?

I am at work.  I write for a living.  So there.  :p

 

[HTAPAWASO]

That's true, and it's one of the more challenging components of horse archery skill.  Still, a moving target is much harder to hit than a stationary one.

But no one is stationary. A horse archer will not win a duel versus foot archer. Foot archer can dodge easier, shoot in all directions, is smaller than rider with horse, and has less predictable movement. Foot archer won't stumble accidently on invisible steep hill or hit invisible wall. The only advantage horse archer has is faster movement. But versus foot archers it doesnt matter, because you're not going to charge him and melee foot archer.

20 nord archers will beat 20 khergit HA on almost every map. Try it.

Exactly what I was about to point out.

A moving horseman is a lot easier to hit than a moving footman because the target is bigger and the movement more predictable.



However another advantage HAs have over regular archers is the awesome power of the horse bump...
Get in there, bump them until they draw a melee weapon, then shoot them in the face.
(only works on 1-on-1s of course)

 

[Berserker Pride]

Hell no horse bumping works in large battles too.  It is why Khergits win when you don't have cover.

 

[EdwardWellcraft]

But no one is stationary. A horse archer will not win a duel versus foot archer. Foot archer can dodge easier, shoot in all directions, is smaller than rider with horse, and has less predictable movement. Foot archer won't stumble accidently on invisible steep hill or hit invisible wall. The only advantage horse archer has is faster movement. But versus foot archers it doesnt matter, because you're not going to charge him and melee foot archer.

20 nord archers will beat 20 khergit HA on almost every map. Try it.

Am I the only one who plays HA with a sword and shield as well? I kill foot archers with that, and reserve my bow for dealing with melee troops. However foot archers have the immense bonus of being able to climb just about anything. The thing that always amazes me is people that use 2-handers vs the Khergit. That's just making yourself a target.

At any rate I don't think horse archers are overpowered at all, as they are extremely easy to defeat on any level but open plains. The problem is they aren't fun to play against. They are just frustrating, which I think result sin many people not playing their best against them or not thinking straight. Defeating them is really easy but it is really easy because you just camp the spawn point. Good luck getting anywhere, you aren't going to reach anything before they swarm you. So the single best way to defeat them is to camp the spawn. Good fun...

But what can you do? That's just the Khergits. If you changed it so that's not how they played, it wouldn't be the Khergits anymore.

 

[silentdawn]

I usually forgo the shield for more ammo as my horse dies before I do 90% of the time. But I do use my saber a lot. I'm constantly switching back and forth taking shots and swings when opportunities present themselves.

 

[HTAPAWASO]

Hell no horse bumping works in large battles too.  It is why Khergits win when you don't have cover.

Yes, horsebumping has many uses, but the scenario I described above (repeatedly bumping one person) will not work if there are any of their team members nearby.
Of course the 'ole bump n' slash still works like a charm, but many people seem incapable of doing this.


Edward:

I usually take extra ammo instead of a shield, but I do use my saber a lot to mix things up.

 

[Albretch]

Hell no horse bumping works in large battles too.  It is why Khergits win when you don't have cover.

Yes, horsebumping has many uses, but the scenario I described above (repeatedly bumping one person) will not work if there are any of their team members nearby.
Of course the 'ole bump n' slash still works like a charm, but many people seem incapable of doing this.

Hard a bit  to pull when people do the ol' "Jump'n'slash" with a 2H

 

[Seawied86]

while I agree horse archers are very powerful currently, I don't believe they are over powered. I think they are balanced right now.

 

[Mabons]

1. Now, if there ends up some nerf to general archery, my preferred nerf being the addition of an animation to fetch yon arrow from the quiver, that might be enough in itself, but will also nerf an HA defense.

Agreed.

2. It used to seem like your own momentum had to be calculated when shooting, and it seems this has gone away. Bring it back? Dedicated HA will spend a bit of time practising, but at least this should increase the chance to miss a shot.

Oh this explains why I am missing... I was used to the momentum before...

3. Change Horse Archery skill. I do not like this idea. A few patches ago they had lower HA. Effective HA at that time was to prowl the fringes very slowly, stop and shoot, run away... rinse repeat. Strafing runs like you see now where non existent. I like the strafing runs.

As you have said, it is not a good idea.

4. Smaller bow. Less damage. Shorter range.

They do have small damage and range.

5. I am going to change this to:
change firing arc. (Not necessarily a nerf)

Sorry but I disagree here. It's a little hard to shoot to the right when you are drawing the bow into your body. A little hard to explain...

6. Restrict to one stack of arrows.

Again, Disagree. Horse archers burn through a lot of ammo.

7. Restrict stack size.
A party favourite for quite some time for all missile weapons.

At least for the higher damaging missles.

 

[HTAPAWASO]

Hell no horse bumping works in large battles too.  It is why Khergits win when you don't have cover.

Yes, horsebumping has many uses, but the scenario I described above (repeatedly bumping one person) will not work if there are any of their team members nearby.
Of course the 'ole bump n' slash still works like a charm, but many people seem incapable of doing this.

Hard a bit  to pull when people do the ol' "Jump'n'slash" with a 2H

Deciding quickly and efficiently when to use different tactics is what makes a successful player.

I do not try and use my greatsword against an archer who is 100ft away.
I do not horsebump people swinging giant axes at me.

I do, however, horsebump those who won't stop shooting at me, and people who refuse to lower their block/shield.

 

[Yellonet]

Sorry but I disagree here. It's a little hard to shoot to the right when you are drawing the bow into your body. A little hard to explain...

You should be able to draw half strength and aim about 90 degrees to the right side of horse I think.

 

[PsykoOps]

2. It used to seem like your own momentum had to be calculated when shooting, and it seems this has gone away. Bring it back? Dedicated HA will spend a bit of time practising, but at least this should increase the chance to miss a shot.

No way. That was completely ridicilous and fiction based. It has been reduced and even though I haven't tried it I know the old system was unrealistic and stupid nerf to HA.

 

[PsykoOps]

Sorry but I disagree here. It's a little hard to shoot to the right when you are drawing the bow into your body. A little hard to explain...

You should be able to draw half strength and aim about 90 degrees to the right side of horse I think.

Not even close, maybe around 20 degrees accurately more than that you'd pretty much screw the shot. Feel free to try it out yourself.

 

[Phallas]

In reality horse archers are a very up close shot,  They would ride past you at moderate speed and fire from a meter away.
None of this long distance run and gun as it where.

OFF TOP ON!
The Persians defeated the Romans many times using horse archers. In one battle the horse archers ran away, the Romans believed that
the Persians where retreating, and they took chase, Then the horse archers turn around and volleyed arrows at infantry, killing most of the
roman infantry, out of 40,000 troops 5,000 went home alive, and the Persians won even though it was 2 to 1 in favour for the Romans.
OFF TOP OFF

So in conclusion the horse archers should be made in-accurate, so that they have to stand still, or shoot from very close, this
would put them in dangers way when they try to attack, just like any other troop.

And a note to all horse archers, when its 1 on 1 with a board shield, just get put the bow away and attack! there are people in limbo waiting!.

 

[Yellonet]

Balancing should be done by making everything more realistic, as it is now we have many realistic advantages, but few realistic disadvantages, we really don't want to keep making unrealistic changes here and there to create balance.

If horses would be made realistic they would be more powerful, you'd be very seriously hurt if run over, they could plow through a lot of people without stopping. They would not run into things so easily. They would be able to bump other riders horses.
Also, they would be much more vulnerable, one well placed arrow would make them fall, one good slash to the leg would make them fall and they would not be able to jump out of weapons reach.

 

[PsykoOps]

In reality horse archers are a very up close shot,  They would ride past you at moderate speed and fire from a meter away.
None of this long distance run and gun as it where.

This is utter bullocks. Horse archers were very accurate and engaged from long distances just as easily.

 

[test]

I don't think Horse Archers are particularly over/underpowered, it's just that they're not very fun to play or face.  Whenever Khergits come up, people tend to disappear.  They need their own specific maps to be competitive, and force teams to use tedious tactics.

Horse archers artificially draw-out gameplay and add dead-time, and forces the other side's infantry to camp and try to outshoot the Horse Archers.  Or it's chasing that one horse archer across the map while scavenging throwing weapons.  It's really a fundamental issue with horse archers not being very suited/fun for MP.

I've been thinking that Khergits could be made more fun with some tweaks along these lines:

1)  As foot units make them amazing light skirmirshers.  Give them two points of athletics above archers from the other factions.

2)  Severely nerf/discourage their bow usage on horse, but keep it on par with other archer units on foot.

3)  Buff their power throw to 7 or 8,, and encourage the use of throwing weapons on horse. 

These changes let them skirmish and dehorse cavalry, but stops them from sniping from across the map and relocating as soon as anyone gets close.
I think their role should be speedy harassment, and that should be done in a manner that's fun for everyone.  Basically keep them as the best skirmishers/harassers, but done so from a distance where other foot troops can get in on the action as well.

 

[HTAPAWASO]

I don't think Horse Archers are particularly over/underpowered, it's just that they're not very fun to play or face.  Whenever Khergits come up, people tend to disappear.  They need their own specific maps to be competitive, and force teams to use tedious tactics.

Horse archers artificially draw-out gameplay and add dead-time, and forces the other side's infantry to camp and try to outshoot the Horse Archers.  Or it's chasing that one horse archer across the map while scavenging throwing weapons.  It's really a fundamental issue with horse archers not being very suited/fun for MP.

I've been thinking that Khergits could be made more fun with some tweaks along these lines:

1)  As foot units make them amazing light skirmirshers.  Give them two points of athletics above archers from the other factions.

2)  Severely nerf/discourage their bow usage on horse, but keep it on par with other archer units on foot.

3)  Buff their power throw to 7 or 8,, and encourage the use of throwing weapons on horse. 

These changes let them skirmish and dehorse cavalry, but stops them from sniping from across the map and relocating as soon as anyone gets close.
I think their role should be speedy harassment, and that should be done in a manner that's fun for everyone.  Basically keep them as the best skirmishers/harassers, but done so from a distance where other foot troops can get in on the action as well.

I think you may be on to something here.

A skirmisher cav with throwing weapons and a long cavalry sword (but no lance) would be pretty cool.

 

[Phallas]

In reality horse archers are a very up close shot,  They would ride past you at moderate speed and fire from a meter away.
None of this long distance run and gun as it where.

This is utter bullocks. Horse archers were very accurate and engaged from long distances just as easily.

The main 2 tactics used with horse archers

1. Runaway, wait for the infantry to break formation, turn around and shoot. (parthian shot)
2. Circle the enemy into  a whirlpool of flying arrows.
Most horse archers would dismount for greater accuracy.

Drawing a bow requires of an archer to put weight behind his bowarm i. e. standing still.
Arrows however have a relatively low lethality, and are useless at close quarters.
Footarchers were therefore highly vulnerable, especially against armoured opponents.
A drawback of horse archers was that the movements of a running horse disturbed the accuracy of the shot.
After the invention of the stirrup, horse archers would stand up in their stirrups to absorb the motion of the horse.
A method to facilitate accurate shooting was to time shots between the strides of the horse. Smaller horses where mainly used by horse archers,
most times ponies where a better choice, because they could be dismounted easily and it was easier to control their speed and moment.



When did i say they didn't engage from long distance?  very accurate? have you ever ridden a horse?
The up and down traction is enough to make sure you never have children,
let alone trying to nock and fire and arrow.
Very difficult too ride and fire.


Next time you completely contradict some ones comment try providing at least some back bone to your bullocks statements.