[Suggestion] Further Nerfs for Horse Archery

[Teala]

The weapons are all fairly balanced.  Some need a few minor tweaks here and there, and the factions are pretty blanced as well, some could use some tweaking on weapons choices, and stats, but over all they are almost balanced.  What makes the difference and I see this time and time again from certain players - is teamwork and they learned to use the various weapons.    Team work wins battles consistently.    What will be sad though is the lack of maps when this game launches - that is if the only maps we get are the ones currently in the game.  Once regular gamers get their hands on it and start forming teams and learning to play as a team it'll get boring and stale if their is not some incentive to keep playing.  That will be the downfall of the multiplayer.  In games like CoD and BF2 you can progress and unlock new wepaons and skills.  That is the incentive to keep playing. 

I digress though that is for another topic.

Back to the topic, teamwork and player skill is what wins battles...not any one particular weapon - though there is too many two handers being used in current game hopefully that will be toned down some. 

Morning stars still need their length tweaked(they hit stuff even though the thing is out of range).  Pick axes are still weak.  Rhodoks need a falchion(IMHO).  Scimitars across the board for Vaegirs.  Shields need tweaked.

Circle strafing needs fixed, because that is one of the biggest problems.  People weapons can reset to fast using this method it makes for silly looking combat where everyone is looking down at the ground and swingging in 3/4 circles at one another.  Over all though the game is really fun for the most part...just wish it had more meaningful game play.     

 

[silentdawn]

Cwvym these threads are meant for discussion and debate telling everyone that doesn't agree with you to **** off isn't a good way to promote good discussions. If you want to have a conversation with people that agree with your point of view you should invite all that agree with you to a private chat and leave this forum alone.

 

[Albretch]

Cwvym these threads are meant for discussion and debate telling everyone that doesn't agree with you to **** off isn't a good way to promote good discussions. If you want to have a conversation with people that agree with your point of view you should invite all that agree with you to a private chat and leave this forum alone.

I think he meant more "people who'll bring something to the table" rather than having yet ANOTHER side-stepping into EVERYTHING that needs a tweak/balance/whatever, like most thread here, who easely derail onto another subject or another argument on who's OP or what needs a boost or etc etc etc etc......if we're talking about pie, don't drag your stupid meatloaf and potatoes ideas here.

Cwvym's actually trying to get SOLUTIONS to the situation, asking people who do see the situation he's presenting more than looking for a debate (which trives in here) or trying to balance EVERYTHING in one go.

 

[Berserker Pride]

If you don't think Khergit Horse Archers are overpowered, **** off, this is not the thread for you.

No he quite literally said if you don't agree with me **** off.  Which is a pretty dumb thing to say.  He might have said don't spawn the thread with "nu-uh they aren't overpowered" with no explanation of why they disagree.  But he didn't.  Nothing is wrong with someone telling him he is wrong and then explaining why they believe that.

 

[Yoshi Murasaki]

Yall missed my '**** off if you don't think they are overpowered' bit.

No, we didn't miss that. We just said "**** you" and presented our valid points which you didn't bother refuting.


If you want to create anti-HA poet society, you are free to do so. But if you're trying to monopolize opinion here and present your view to admins in exclusive way which will make an appearance that your opinion is vox populi then.. no thanks.

We're beta testing here. This isn't a like/dislike club. If you think HA's are overpowered, that's ok, but show us where to see that. Khergits only have HA and Lancers; in theory, these two should be slightly more powerful to make up for the loss of the third option. I cannot see, based on current empiric data, how khergits are overpowered. Nevertheless, I can look into the proof that you present, after which I can change my opinion quite easily. So, what server should I go to, to witness this malefic destruction and havoc that khergits leave in their wake?

Had a battle match khergits against rhodok on ruins the other day... khergits (all HA) totally and utterly destroyed them. They were in the village.

On the other side, the difficulty is getting all of your team to fortify one place (many of them like to stand around and die instead of running for cover

That.

You can't say something is strong just because the other side acts like scarecrows standing in the open field.
I found lancers more dangerous as well.. until I simply learned of the downwards block. After that I just chuckled.

I witnessed Khergits both attacking and defending on Ruins. When attacking, they had a really really difficult time (in other words, they lost many rounds). Why is that? Because the other team was smart enough to take lots of archers.
When defending, Khergits can reach attacker's location very fast. Tricky part here is reaching first stone blocks. It helps if attackers are smart enough to have at least few cavalry that will distract the onslaught until infantry reaches cover.


The fact, based on empiric data, clearly shows one thing - HA is as powerful as the map allows it. HA is as powerful as the team they fight against. The team they fight with. In that order. Fourth, only fourth, are the stats of horse archer.
This means that if you try to balance HA by having random plains in mind, HA will end up being useless in 90% of other maps. If you plan on balancing HA by having in mind duel of sword/shield infantry vs HA in the open.. they will be nerfed how much exactly? If you want to balance HA by having in mind headless chicken in the opposing team, then what will happen in clan vs clan battles? Who will play HA? Will HA in clan vs clan battles call upon opponents to "come in the middle of the field and dance"?

Cwvym's actually trying to get SOLUTIONS to the situation, asking people who do see the situation he's presenting more than looking for a debate

No, he just wanted a "yes"-people. As you said, 'more than looking for a debate'. If there's no debate, what is the point of this board? We can just make polls and be done with it. If horse archers are overpowered, to what server I need to go to witness it?

 

[Cwvym]

Heh. I was hoping to avoid pages of crap that I have allready heard. They can disagree all they like, and it did not matter how I phrase it they will post their crap anyway. Really, I wanted ideas on how to make Khergits playable, not I AM GENERAL PATTON USE TACTICS NOOB. I also did not want, though I know of no way to prevent it, from having Yoshi start with pages of bull**** that I will not read.

It's ok though, all the important stuff will be on the first post, and if I see ideas I will edit it. The rest of the thread, like most of them, loses it's value pretty quick.

I want to play khergits (as and against), just not in their current OP state.

EDIT: the '**** off' was to say - don't waste your time and mine.

 

[Albretch]

All right Cwvym:  Well, I posted my idea in the first 2-3 post on page 1: so at least it's out there; let's ponder on that.

EDIT: post # 6 actually

 

[Teala]

Heh. I was hoping to avoid pages of crap that I have allready heard. They can disagree all they like, and it did not matter how I phrase it they will post their crap anyway. Really, I wanted ideas on how to make Khergits playable, not I AM GENERAL PATTON USE TACTICS NOOB. I also did not want, though I know of no way to prevent it, from having Yoshi start with pages of bull**** that I will not read.

It's ok though, all the important stuff will be on the first post, and if I see ideas I will edit it. The rest of the thread, like most of them, loses it's value pretty quick.

I want to play khergits (as and against), just not in their current OP state.

EDIT: the '**** off' was to say - don't waste your time and mine.

Well this is one time I hope the developers listen to reason.  Because I have seen what good players can do against Khergs that know how to play.  If anythin Khergs are by far the weakest of the factions in many ways and for you to sit and say, Khergs are OP is just plain laughable from me playing them a whole lot - against bots and against players.  Good players who know weapons and tactics can wtfbbqpwn Khergs on just about any given map.

 

[CryptoCactus]

I don't think they're particularly OP. I see them lose about as often as I see them win. But dear god in heaven, are they annoying. That's the main problem with them IMO - they're boring and annoying and not much else. Just, "oh god, Khergits again, [infinitymillion polls]".


Extra fun is when there's 1 enemy HA and 2 friendly inf remaining and he shoots from 200 yards away (not hitting anything), and when anyone gets within 50 yards of him, he's off to the other end of the map for 5 more minutes of the same. Yawn.


Basically just wish there were a way we could make them more fun and less of a whirlpool of suck. The only joy I ever get out of Khergs is putting bolts into horseflesh.

 

[Yoshi Murasaki]

Really, I wanted ideas on how to make Khergits playable

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,84058.0.html

Nerfing HA to oblivion won't make them more playable. Giving more options would.

I also did not want, though I know of no way to prevent it, from having Yoshi start with pages of bull**** that I will not read.

Unfortunately Yoshi isn't interested much in opinions. So Yoshi will ask simple questions like:
Show me what server to go to to witness OP khergits.

And:
Nerfing HA would achieve what exactly? Balance khergits vs others? HA being equal to sword n shield infantry in the middle of the field?

I want to play khergits (as and against), just not in their current OP state.

They are underpowered. They are the least versatile of factions. And they are impossible to balance in their current state because they will either be too powerful unless you nerf them to oblivion on some maps like random plains, or they will be near useless like in Village.
You can nerf HA as many times you want, it's not the stats that make Khergits OP or UP. It is design.

 

[SockMonkeh]

That's the main problem with them IMO - they're boring and annoying and not much else.

Exactly. They are not OP'd. They are good at harassing but not closing. So they can't win, but they can annoy the hell out of you until the timer goes to zero. I think giving them some kind of infantry would go pretty far as a way to change this. You might then see horse archers and lancers supporting the infantry rather than just retreating dipping in for brief attacks the whole game.

 

[ScientiaExcelsa]

They're too accurate.  It doesn't make sense that the Khergit archers, designed for strafing and skirmishing, should be more accurate than the marksmanship-oriented archers of other factions.

Khergits have mobile horses and fast bows.  They should be all about maintaining a hard-to-hit profile and putting as much arrow-fire downfield as possible.  Nerfing their accuracy would balance them well and still preserve their playing style, which is a blast from the firing end of the bow.

I realize the OP didn't want cries of "nerf" from the posters, but I think a small nerf in this area would render the most benefit for the least harm.

 

[Yoshi Murasaki]

They're too accurate.

Compared to foot archers?

Or compared to norse riders armed with throwing spear? Try that one, very easy to hit even at full speed.

 

[Teala]

They're too accurate.  It doesn't make sense that the Khergit archers, designed for strafing and skirmishing, should be more accurate than the marksmanship-oriented archers of other factions.

Khergits have mobile horses and fast bows.  They should be all about maintaining a hard-to-hit profile and putting as much arrow-fire downfield as possible.  Nerfing their accuracy would balance them well and still preserve their playing style, which is a blast from the firing end of the bow.

I realize the OP didn't want cries of "nerf" from the posters, but I think a small nerf in this area would render the most benefit for the least harm.

OK then nerf xbows, and archers and don't allow the other teams to use faster mounts than the Khergs.  Because those other factions have awesome weapons they can bing to bare against Khergs and they are really effective in the hands of good players.  OMG...I know first hand of this.  Getting your horse shot out from under you constantly is not fun and the horse is your saving grace as a Kherg.  Plus other factions have access to way better mounts and longer lances and they are very effective against Khergs.  Khergs are not OP. 

 

[ScientiaExcelsa]

Perhaps you should read the OP, or at least this post:

Heh. I was hoping to avoid pages of crap that I have allready heard. They can disagree all they like, and it did not matter how I phrase it they will post their crap anyway. Really, I wanted ideas on how to make Khergits playable, not I AM GENERAL PATTON USE TACTICS NOOB. I also did not want, though I know of no way to prevent it, from having Yoshi start with pages of bull**** that I will not read.

It's ok though, all the important stuff will be on the first post, and if I see ideas I will edit it. The rest of the thread, like most of them, loses it's value pretty quick.

I want to play khergits (as and against), just not in their current OP state.

EDIT: the '**** off' was to say - don't waste your time and mine.

Incidentally, you're wrong.

 

[HTAPAWASO]

They're too accurate.  It doesn't make sense that the Khergit archers, designed for strafing and skirmishing, should be more accurate than the marksmanship-oriented archers of other factions.

Khergits have mobile horses and fast bows.  They should be all about maintaining a hard-to-hit profile and putting as much arrow-fire downfield as possible.  Nerfing their accuracy would balance them well and still preserve their playing style, which is a blast from the firing end of the bow.

I realize the OP didn't want cries of "nerf" from the posters, but I think a small nerf in this area would render the most benefit for the least harm.

The problem with trying to maintain a 'hard-to-hit profile' is that people on horseback are 10x easier to hit than those on the ground, since you have a huge horse as a target, and it is difficult to use cover.

That's why the best counter against the khergits is a swarm of archers.



I agree that HAs are more annoying than OP.
Maybe restrict them to one bag of arrows?

 

[Cwvym]

Ok that's a suggestion I overlooked .. restrict stacks  / stack size.

 

[ScientiaExcelsa]

The problem with trying to maintain a 'hard-to-hit profile' is that people on horseback are 10x easier to hit than those on the ground, since you have a huge horse as a target, and it is difficult to use cover.

That's true, and it's one of the more challenging components of horse archery skill.  Still, a moving target is much harder to hit than a stationary one.

I recognize that nerfing HA accuracy would force them to fight in closer quarters where they make better targets, so perhaps my idea needs some revision.  I do still feel that they're a bit over-powered, though.

 

[Teala]

Ok that's a suggestion I overlooked .. restrict stacks  / stack size.

Then can we say the same for throwing weapons in general and all archers?  It is silly that I can go and grap two stacks of throwing axes and take out one horse with two axes and sometimes just one, but as a horse archer, it takes many arrows to do the same.  See there has to be some balance or you are seriously handicapping what is all ready a weak faction.

 

[Cwvym]

It's in the suggestion Teala. Also, are you not supposed to be at work?