[Suggestion] "Fix" bastard swords

[Reapy]

Hey ares, I think the problem is that to go farther with melee changes would really be a bunch more work and balance. I think this is something they might continue to work on after warband has been released either as m&b 2 or just further patches to warband, or another expansion.  Remember that the more mechanics they place in melee, the more work that has to go into the single player bots. They have to be aware of all these changes and react appropriately. I think right now bots don't even really understand kick at all, with even more stuff, bots will appear stupider and stupider, and there is a whole large subset of people that only play the single player.

However I completely agree with you, and I feel that the system can be summarized as a real time guessing game. There are plenty of little tricks to disguise your final choice of a swing, but I'd like to see more back and forth in the game and the removal of kick hits and it just get a little bit more complicated, more moves to choose from etc.

 

[Skot the Sanguine]

So why not force the Swadians to specialize a little more? Either go with a two hander or go with a one hander, no hand-n-half. Leave them for the cavalry because they work quite well as cavalry swords with their extra reach and the Men At Arms have lower proficiencies, if memory serves.

I'd say remove them from infantry, keep them for men at arms because they're good cavalry swords, and nobody can really complain. If you want one that badly, play as cavalry. Trust me, you get more one hit kills and I'm sure that would appeal to you.

My answer to this is simple.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1MLry6Cn_D4

 

[jhuseby]

not sure why you guys had to go 7+ pages to respond to scipio...would be better just to laugh and pat him on the head.

 

[Berserker Pride]

Scipio isn't the first to say that bastard swords are all around too good at everything.  The issue has come up before in earlier patches.  I think it is the damn super kickslash that tipped the scales over the edge though. 

He's also a much more senior warband member than a lot of people like say YOU.

 

[ScientiaExcelsa]

not sure why you guys had to go 7+ pages to respond to scipio...would be better just to laugh and pat him on the head.

You're an idiot but I had to laugh.    Excellent putdown!

 

[Sarejo]

not sure why you guys had to go 7+ pages to respond to scipio...would be better just to laugh and pat him on the head.

Because he refuses to accept the superiority of my arguments

 

[ScientiaExcelsa]

Our rivalry would be pointless if we agreed on everything!  If anything, you give me energy to keep going!

 

[Gabeed]

Interesting debate.  I'd argue for slowing down the 2-handed bastard sword speed a tad, and speed up the one-handed style.  Otherwise, I think they're fine.

 

[Sarejo]

Well, but every 2h/1h weapon gets the same penalty for using it as a 1h. So you would also affect the other weapons. The good thing about using it as 1h is it's big reach, only rivaled by the scimitar (and Sarranid cav sword).

 

[Seawied86]

Interesting debate.  I'd argue for slowing down the 2-handed bastard sword speed a tad, and speed up the one-handed style.  Otherwise, I think they're fine.

I'd support this as well. It would be good incentive to use 1 1/2h weapons with a shield without destroying their balance.

 

[SockMonkeh]

Interesting debate.  I'd argue for slowing down the 2-handed bastard sword speed a tad, and speed up the one-handed style.  Otherwise, I think they're fine.

I'd support this as well. It would be good incentive to use 1 1/2h weapons with a shield without destroying their balance.

I could get behind this.

 

[Marcos182]

Frickin crybabies... you know what? i hope they do nerf the bastard sword, and people STILL continue to use them and somehow dominate and get you all to whine even more.  I'll still use them just for how cool they look.  Oh, and when i play as "inf" for Swadia (as rare as it is) i always pick Mant at arms and get rid of the horse anyway, just to get the awesome look Coat of plates armor = so yes make it only for Swadian cav, fine with me haha. 

They should fix the whole great axe change of direction speed before they touch the bastard sword but i'd prefer even MORE if they leave all the weapons the way they are before they ruin the game with waayyy too much "fine tuning".  Sometimes i'm good with a certain weapon and sometimes I have a bad day.. i dont care, and same goes for weapons i'm fighting AGAINST... i also dont care, the game is fun no matter if i'm losing or winning.

Ps. i'm gonna start couching more, even though some people think its useless, just to annoy the people who whined about it in the first place lol.

 

[Seawied86]

Frickin crybabies... you know what? i hope they do nerf the bastard sword, and people STILL continue to use them and somehow dominate and get you all to whine even more.  I'll still use them just for how cool they look.  Oh, and when i play as "inf" for Swadia (as rare as it is) i always pick Mant at arms and get rid of the horse anyway, just to get the awesome look Coat of plates armor = so yes make it only for Swadian cav, fine with me haha. 

They should fix the whole great axe change of direction speed before they touch the bastard sword but i'd prefer even MORE if they leave all the weapons the way they are before they ruin the game with waayyy too much "fine tuning".  Sometimes i'm good with a certain weapon and sometimes I have a bad day.. i dont care, and same goes for weapons i'm fighting AGAINST... i also dont care, the game is fun no matter if i'm losing or winning.

Ps. i'm gonna start couching more, even though some people think its useless, just to annoy the people who whined about it in the first place lol.

After reading this, I only have one question

How long have you known that you've had A.D.D.? 

 

[Marcos182]

long time, looonngg time, my friends told me

 

[Orion]

After reading this, I only have one question

How long have you known that you've had A.D.D.? 

After reading that, I only had one thought.

I hope he realizes he isn't as good as ADD.

Anyway, "fine tuning" doesn't ruin a game. It helps achieve balance, which is the hardest thing to get right in any game where it's necessary. With as many variables as you have in Warband, what with 6 factions and 3 (in one case, 2) classes to pick from for each faction, with different item selections for all of them, you have a terrifying balancing act to do. I'm amazed the game is as balanced as it is. I still see Nords fill up before any other faction, and Swadians are close behind, but a little skill still goes a lot farther than any great long weapon variant.

The problem with bastard swords is that skill becomes less useful because of the way they are used. Instead of constantly predicting and countering each and every attack, a bastard sword user can rely on learned behaviors to defeat an enemy. In the case of other weapons, like a spear or pike, a learned behavior like thrusting into the front of a charging horse is fine. For a bastard sword, the learned behavior revolves around gamey twitchiness like kickslashing. I even use kickslash because I know it's effective. It also shortens what might otherwise be a very interesting fight, and I know it's a terribly reliable method for dealing with new players. It defeats anyone who doesn't have the range on kicks down pat, and that means it's easy for the high-skill players to do it and hard for the casual and new players.

Is the problem specific to the bastard sword? No, but it certainly is most pronounced with the bastard sword. Only the bastard sword combines good reach, damage and speed to make a kickslash fatal nearly all the time. Other weapons capable of doing it consistently are one handed, and thus have lower damage or lower reach. The bastard sword is unique because it has everything in good balance.

 

[Marcos182]

After reading this, I only have one question

How long have you known that you've had A.D.D.? 

After reading that, I only had one thought.

I hope he realizes he isn't as good as ADD.

... i'm pretty sure thats not what he meant

 

[ScientiaExcelsa]

Wow, why the animosity?  I would certainly hope that people would still perform well with the bastard sword if it got nerfed!  I think it's the most distinctive Swadian weapon choice and it should be the most powerful, I just think it's too much right now.

 

[Skot the Sanguine]

Dunno, I am not generally sure about much of the comments since I have been using the Heavy Bastard Sword since .500.  As such, the changes have been gradual in my eyes.  Maybe people have just discovered how good of a weapon it is....and that it isn't just a weapon lying between 1 handers and 2 handers but is a good all-round choice.

I have no problems with it being tweaked....I would still use it if it became the worst weapon in the game....but Marnid's idea about taking them away from infantry.....NEIN, NEIN, NEIN, NEIN, NEIN!!!!!

 

[ScientiaExcelsa]

And there you have it, straight from the lips of Mr. Bastard von Kickslash himself! 

I agree, though, fantastic cavalry weapon though the B sword is, there would be riots if they took it away from the infantry.

 

[CalenLoki]

Whatever you want to do, don't remove any weapon only from one class. Arbitrary restrictions never solve any problems, and only show incompetence at balancing.

PS. IMO BS isn't OP - it's best weapon for duels because:
-shields in duels doesn't really help - you don't have multiple opponents nor archers (which make all 1h or axes less useful),
-you also don't have team-mates, which make big'n'slow support weapons weak.
-duellers usually don't wear heavy armour, nor use horses
Now think - what weapon don't use shield as default, is fast, doesn't deal piercing damage nor shield busting nor is designed as anti cavalry? Longsword should be best duel weapon.

Agree with removing kick-slash and invisible reach of horseback swing - from all weapons, not only from longsword.
About insta-stab - it doesn't happens too often, but I still thing that stab damage should be dealt only with tip - hitting anything with blade or shaft while stabbing should cancel attack.