[Suggestion] Faction-defining classes.

[Random Peasant]

Nice to see this thread isn't dead yet.

As I said before, I'm not too keen on the Vaegirs. I know they're based off of the Rus, but I hardly know any history about them. Suppose I'll do a bit of studying later on so I can get a better idea.

Also I'm adding clips of peoples' posts under the spoiler tags in the main post. I like giving credit where it's due, and it also helps the devs out by giving the general opinions of the public without having to scroll through the whole thread.

 

[cmpowers81]

I think an artillery class should be utilized 

 

[Berserker Pride]

Nice to see this thread isn't dead yet.

I think an artillery class should be utilized 

And now it is.

 

[Sheepskin Seatcovers]

Perhaps this could be balanced with a racial bonus.  Such as all nords get a 5% bonus in all damage dealt, Swadians get +5% horse speed + armor, rhodocks get +5% max hp... more could be said..

 

[Qwertyman]

Perhaps this could be balanced with a racial bonus.  Such as all nords get a 5% bonus in all damage dealt, Swadians get +5% horse speed + armor, rhodocks get +5% max hp... more could be said..

they do,  every class has its own stats- as characters do in singleplayer,  i cba rooting it out right now but you can find a table with all thier stats on the forums somewhere.

for example, nords have less athletics, but more powerstrike and higher weapon skills compared to say- vieger spearmen.

 

[AoC]

First, i don't think that opening poster have good idea. Imo, it sucks hard and is totally wrong.

Swadia:
-Militia
-Archer
-Knight

Why such strange combination you ask. First, i think that Nords have to be removed from the game in their current form. Moreover, i think they should merge with swadians losing most of their former identity. They have 1 semi-ranged class, one dedicated ranged class and one class that could act as infantry or cavalry equally good.

Overall theme:
All armours except hardened cloths (starting armour) have tabard/surcoat on the armour. This surcoat is red or blue (in swadia vs swadia battles).
Their armours include:
1.hardened cloths
2.gambessons
3.aketons
4.mail shirts
5.mail hauberks
6.early coat of plates on mail hauberk

Their helmets include:
1.arming caps
2.conical helmets
3.mail coifs
4.secret helmets and mail coifs
5.flat topped helmets
6.kettle helmets
7.faceplate helmets
8.various full helmets (early)

Militia will have those weapon lines:
1.crossbows (and belts)
2.spears
3.short swords
4.small axes
5.daggers
6.shields
Also, they will have access to saddle horses. They will have access up to mail shirt and open helmets.

Archers will have those weapon lines:
1.bows (and arrows)
2.short swords
3.small axes
4.daggers
6.shields
They will have access up to mail shirt and open helmets, worse 1h and shield proficiency than militia, smaller shields.

Knight will have those weapon lines:
1.lances (no great lance)
2.swords
3.one and a half swords
4.one and a half axes
5.throwing axes
6.shields
They will have access to many horses, better horses will have barding. No mail or plate on the horses. They will have access to most armours (except heavy clothing) and helmets (except kettle helmets line).

If i remember correctly i already said a word about vaegirs. I would re-do Rhodok choices, but i would keep xbow, sarge and noble theme (but nobles would be primary throw-from-horseback faction, swadian knights would have very low horse throwing, only decent on the ground throwing).

 

[mouthnhoof]

Making each faction dominant in one aspect is a bad idea - multiplayer gameplay wise.

If you do that and player feel that a Swadian infantry is really inferior to Nord one, there will be no infantry action when those factions play. Almost all swadians will go cavalry, a few xbows and no infatry. All Swadia vs. Nord engagements will be a group of Nord infantry trying to hold one position waiting for the Swad cavalry to charge them - and nothing else. The same will be true for any other matchup where each faction is dominant over the other in some way.

Factions need to be "close" to matched in each department. "Close" meaning that the player skill being more significant than the setup of the troops. The real difference between factions is the look and feel, not the actual power.

 

[Sir Pwn-A-Lot]

Nords

隐藏

Current Classes: Nord Archers, Nord Huscarls, Nord Scouts.
The first two I'm okay with, but Scouts? Correct me if I'm wrong but I've never heard of Northern clans ever using a cavalry-type troop, but I have heard stories of the mighty Beserkers! So why not replace Nords' cavalry with something that further defines their role as an infantry based faction?

The Nord Berserker would introduce a new line of weapons and armor, and would also call for the implementation of a Duel wielding skill (possibly). Their line of weapons would obviously be a set of axes (counts as 1 item, one axe in each hand, disables the use of shields) and swords, possibly give them a few weak shields and a low shield skill. Their armor would be a new line of fur armor, very weak and light. And their skills should reflect their profile.

Alternatively, skip the duel wielding bit and give them weak fur armor, while making them very fast and strong. (I'm sure this would satisfy all those naked warriors out there. )

I also think that Scout isn't needed and support Berserker class idea. Strong with good athletics, p/strike and ironflesh, but with no decent armor (fur coats - max, they're already in-game) and only small shields. 1h/2h axes (not long ones) and swords for weapons. Class MEANT to be added for Nords.

Swadians

隐藏

Current Classes: Swadian Crossbowman, Swadian Infantry, and Swadian Man-At-Arms.
I think the Swadians are already well defined, since they have very good cavalry troops, but if someone else can come up with something, feel free to mention it.

Yes, they are good as they are, but could use something anti-shield. Bec de Corbin is in game already (or at least in game files) , so I see no reason for them not to have it or some other sort of pole-weapon with anti-shield bonus.

Rhodoks

隐藏

Current Classes: Rhodok Crossbowman, Rhodok Sergeant, Rhodok Horseman.
I believe these too should lose their horseman, since it doesn't seem to fit their role very well. Instead, remove the pike from the sergeant's stash and replace the horseman with a Pikeman.

This new class would have access to a large line of pikes of different sizes and strengths, ranging from just a long sturdy branch with a pointy end to an extremely long (albeit slow) pike with a steel head and langets. They should have access to heavy armor and be very skilled with polearms, while lacking in the one-handed weapon department. To even things out, they should be given small and weak shields to protect themselves against incoming arrows and bolts. These new shields should go strapped on to the arm and only deflect passively. You wouldn't be able to ready them like you can ordinary shields. (possibly)

("Minor" suggestion to make this class more appealing: You should be able to set these pikes into a "couched" position with the "x" key. When standing still, it would display as the player bracing the butt of the pike against his foot. When on the move, it would slow the player down considerably as they held it pointing ahead of them. The transition from the stationary to mobile/couched to un-couched stances should leave the character open for a little bit of time.)

Actually I think that new cavalry unit is pretty much ok for Rhodoks, though I would like to see em without ability to buy lances, but with large variation of cavalry weapon instead, means more long (99>115) weapons of different kinds - maces, picks, axes, swords. This will also create new lance-less cavalry soldier, thing I would really like to see in WB MP.

Vaegirs

隐藏

Current Classes: Vaegir Archer, Vaegir Spearman, Vaegir Horseman.
I'm not too keen on this faction. From what I can tell they seem to depend on their archers, which gives me the impression that they're more of a skirmishing faction than anything else. In the event that I'm wrong, I'll give two suggestions for them.

1: As skirmishers, they should keep their horseman, but lose the lance. Instead they would take up the role that the Nord Scout currently holds, tossing javelins and throwing spears all about. This should call for more spear-based throwing items as well. Along with giving them cavalry specific long swords. Something along the lines of a Shashka (I really don't know the age of that type of sword, so I wouldn't know if it would fit into M&B's setting), or perhaps just a variety of scimitars.

2: Lose the cavalry altogether and remove the bardiche from spearman's stash, then introduce another heavy infantry troop: the Vaegir Axeman. They should rival the Nord Huscarls with their bardiche-swinging glory. However, they shouldn't be allowed throwing weapons since the spearmen already have them.

1) "Shasqa" is already in game files, waitin' for it to appear in upcoming MP builds as much as new helmet collection.

I like Vaegir Guard idea, but taking cavalry away from Vaegirs isn't a smart move if you ask me. Maybe create Guard class, but with small Riding skill and ability to buy Vaegir Warhorse, reskinned Warhorse with lower speed (and lower Riding skill required, about 3) , but with better armor protection instead. This way Guards will become pretty unique heavy class with opportunity to buy heavy weapons (berdiches) , armor (Vaegir Elite Armor and masked helmets as max-tier) and horses. I also suggest adding long (99-102) 1h axes with small narrow axehead and piercing effect, similiar to military pick. And maybe even nomad bow ("historically correct", but this will make em a little bit OP I think) . Spearmen gonna be left with mid-tier armor (lamellar vest as max-tier) spears, sabres (scimilars and shasqa) , javelins and clubs.

Vaegirs were grey and boring in the Native, and they pretty much remain unchanged in WB MP (ask every MnB veteran) , and I would really like to see it change in final release.

Khergits

隐藏

Current Classes: Khergit Horse Archer, Khergit Lancer.
Same as the Swadians, I believe they are fine as is unless someone can propose something.
After reading a few comments I've come to the decision that the Khergits deserve a light infantry class along the lines of Skirmishers, whose role would be tossing javelins and spears at enemies. They shouldn't be unlike dismounted Lancers with relatively the same equipment but a different default set-up. Possibly give them a fairly high Athletics skill.

I hate horse archers, but I still suggest that nomad bow should be added in Lancer's buy menu, right next to their javelins and jarids.

 

[Arch3r]

I'd say keep the current classes but add a 4th one instead of replacing a class. This'd be Mounted Crossbowmen for Swadia, Guards for Vaegirs, Infantry (let the sergeant have the pikes and glaive, give the infantry the cleavers and only the spear and war spear as polearm) for Rhodoks, Berserkers (I don't like it much, but it seems popular) for Nords, Infantry (with hafted blade, 2h sabres and throwing weapons) for Khergit, Spearmen for Sarranids.

 

[Apthorpe]

I'd say keep the current classes but add a 4th one instead of replacing a class. This'd be Mounted Crossbowmen for Swadia, Guards for Vaegirs, Infantry (let the sergeant have the pikes and glaive, give the infantry the cleavers and only the spear and war spear as polearm) for Rhodoks, Berserkers (I don't like it much, but it seems popular) for Nords, Infantry (with hafted blade, 2h sabres and throwing weapons) for Khergit, Spearmen for Sarranids.

Yes. Stuff would need to be hammered out, but overall YES.

 

[Sir Pwn-A-Lot]

I'd say keep the current classes but add a 4th one instead of replacing a class. This'd be Mounted Crossbowmen for Swadia, Guards for Vaegirs, Infantry (let the sergeant have the pikes and glaive, give the infantry the cleavers and only the spear and war spear as polearm) for Rhodoks, Berserkers (I don't like it much, but it seems popular) for Nords, Infantry (with hafted blade, 2h sabres and throwing weapons) for Khergit, Spearmen for Sarranids.

Sounds pretty damn good to me, variety is always a good thing.

 

[RealMephisto]

Lol... remove the pike from seargant and replace with cav? You just have no other things to think off so you 're just making it up just so that i would be made up -.- NO NO NO! About berserks in nords? What would be so special? What weapons would differ em from normal inf? I havent got any strength to read on...

 

[Arch3r]

Lol... remove the pike from seargant and replace with cav? You just have no other things to think off so you 're just making it up just so that i would be made up -.- NO NO NO! About berserks in nords? What would be so special? What weapons would differ em from normal inf? I havent got any strength to read on...

Was that directed to me? If so, you're one blind guy, I never suggested removing pikes from sergeants did I?

 

[alh_p]

Nords
Current Classes: Nord Archers, Nord Huscarls, Nord Scouts.
The first two I'm okay with, but Scouts? Correct me if I'm wrong but I've never heard of Northern clans ever using a cavalry-type troop, but I have heard stories of the mighty Beserkers! So why not replace Nords' cavalry with something that further defines their role as an infantry based faction?

The Nord Berserker would introduce a new line of weapons and armor, and would also call for the implementation of a Duel wielding skill (possibly). Their line of weapons would obviously be a set of axes (counts as 1 item, one axe in each hand, disables the use of shields) and swords, possibly give them a few weak shields and a low shield skill. Their armor would be a new line of fur armor, very weak and light. And their skills should reflect their profile.

Alternatively, skip the duel wielding bit and give them weak fur armor, while making them very fast and strong. (I'm sure this would satisfy all those naked warriors out there. )

er, you lost me about there where you mentioned something wholely unachronistic and just silly. Nothing "calls for" Dual wielding's introduction save some fancy nonsense in films and martial arts dueling.

I am all for the Factions having more flavour and individuality but it is also worth noting that infantry, missile and cavalry were the basic types of troops of the time. Many of the other changes you suggest (as well as dual wielding) are surely too ambitious for integration into Warband at this stage (small shields on a pikeman's arm? plausible perhaps)

I think the game would be much more tedious if Rhodocks and Nords didn't have cavalry, especially if that meant more idiots with great axes and being forced to use ineffective spear type weapons.

 

[Wolfrug]

and being forced to use ineffective spear type weapons.

Excuse me? Come tell that to my spear point, peasant! Spears are about the -least- ineffective weapon in the game, man! Heck, if I wasn't such a spear-junkie I'd probably call for a nerf. If only more people'd use spears, they'd -really- shine where they belong, namely in teams. Ah well.

/rant

 

[CryptoCactus]

and being forced to use ineffective spear type weapons.

Excuse me? Come tell that to my spear point, peasant! Spears are about the -least- ineffective weapon in the game, man! Heck, if I wasn't such a spear-junkie I'd probably call for a nerf. If only more people'd use spears, they'd -really- shine where they belong, namely in teams. Ah well.

/rant

I'll see  your spear and raise you an awlpike. 


In other news, while I would love to see a 4th faction-specific class added... I doubt we'll see it at this juncture.

 

[Berserker Pride]

I don't really see the point of this myself.  All of these new "classes" you are proposing can be created ingame easily(with the exception of the unlikely part of your suggestions).  If you want a berserker "class" you keep the free shirt and you grab a long axe and a free shield.  If you want a vaegir guard you take a bardiche and the best armor you can afford instead of a spear.  If you want khergit infantry dismount and there you are.  Khergit lancers have 5 athletics now.  They work very well as infantry.  Rhodoks have the ability to become pikemen if they like.  This just seems like it would restrict classes for no benefit that I can see.  I like they way the current system splits up ranged, cav, and archers and lets you do what you want with your own money without needless class restrictions.

 

[Hamel]

I'm not normally one to say this, but with the release date looming... This is really stuff for mods. There are more important things for the developers to be doing.

From what I can tell, you could make a mod that does this stuff right now.

 

[rokema]

Wolfheadhelmet as default so everyone can recognise the beserkers and bearheadhelmet as highest class. With a deerhorns- or crocodile helmet as middle. + handed axes only for beserkers. (+cheaper throwing axes)

 

[Yukuai]

I don't really see the point of this myself.  All of these new "classes" you are proposing can be created ingame easily(with the exception of the unlikely part of your suggestions).  If you want a berserker "class" you keep the free shirt and you grab a long axe and a free shield.  If you want a vaegir guard you take a bardiche and the best armor you can afford instead of a spear.  If you want khergit infantry dismount and there you are.  Khergit lancers have 5 athletics now.  They work very well as infantry.  Rhodoks have the ability to become pikemen if they like.  This just seems like it would restrict classes for no benefit that I can see.  I like they way the current system splits up ranged, cav, and archers and lets you do what you want with your own money without needless class restrictions.

Yeah: you can create your own class by select the right equipment, but what about the statistics of strenght, dex, cha, and weapon profiencies? I think that some of the ideas that are suggested are not so bad: if you think that when you use Nords you can choose (for example):
- Footman: medium resistance, medium damage
- Berseker: low resistance, high damage
- Archer: like now

or if as a rhodok you can choose:
- Sergeant: medium-high resistance, no  damage in medium distance, good damage in melee
- Pikeman: medium-high resistance, high damage in medium distance, low damage in melee
- Guardian: high resistance, low damage in distance, low damage in melee

They're only example, but I start thinking that create a better diversification about the classes can make the game really various.

Good tread