[Suggestion & discussion] Melee Charge

[Kaeli]

When lying in bed i came up with something i feel is kind of missing in Warband. A good old charge. You know, like a little sprint with your spear infront of you and just smashing into the other party. The little spring would give you a damage increase (speed) and maybe a stronger swing.

BUT to counter one would have to have room to start the spring. And due to the momentum build up once the sprint gets going its impossible to stop dead in your feet. If you stop the spring you should have a few meters of winding down. This would allow people to dodge a charge as such and counter. Like people do with horses at the moment.

I am not certain yet on what to do when the charge does connect. I gues it would differ on the weapon one is using.

For example, a charge with your shield would basicly be a massive bodycheck. Slamming the guy with your shield and body pushing him back, bringing you to a standstill and able to then stick your sword in his body that is recovering from the charge.

A spear charge would be to basicly drive your spear into his body. No strange trusting here during charge. But just like couched lance damage, just with infantry instead. Again here dodge and stab in the back. (pike charge anyone?) Ofcourse aim is everything here.

Other weapons would be about the same. Or a huge swing that when misses brings you off balance (huge force with all your might go's into thin air and should unbalance you totaly)

Now this idea needs some work. And i want everybodys help to turn this into a feature that would add to M&B combat. As imho this would add a lot to team oriented combat. As charging on your own will get you killed quite easyly. But with your entire team? Try dodging 20 charging nords i would say

 

[obolus]

i was thinking that there could be some way how to bonus if people charge together. like if a infantry group goes to charge together and everybody is screaming, its gets you to some frenzy state, full of adrenalin when you are stronger and feel less pain. (ingame like temporary higher powerstrike for example).

if there were gestures (charge gesture) and game would realize that people are charging together using these gestures or something, they could get some bonus.

this is just a basic idea, could be somehow connected with your idea or found as completely stupid and useless, i dunno just other possible point to discuss...

 

[Mudcrab]

That would be damn cool, I have a feeling it would be horribly unbalanced/buggy at first and would take a lot of testing.

 

[ScientiaExcelsa]

I'm against implementing special "moves" like this.  KISS: Keep It Simple, Sirrah.  What I like about Warband combat is that it's simple and flexible and allows you to approximate "moves" well using just the base movement controls.  When you start integrating special attack or movement commands, combat gets monotonous and unbalanced.

 

[grimage]

Unlike ScientiaExcelsa, i'm not against different types of movement.
However, if it has to be done, i don't think we can keep the current jog movement. It has to be broken down in a slower paced movement and a faster one.
Considering your suggestion of melee charge, for example, it could be implemented while changing the current movement to a slower one. The current speed is already high, already efficient at charging, already gives a speed bonus...

We already had a discussion about this here: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,82694.0.html

Here is what i'd prefer, as example:

Give infantry 2 types of movement:
-Jog: Fast speed (current speed or faster). You cannot side-step, and you can only strike once in front of you, then you stop and switches to walk movement.
-Walk: slower speed. You can side step slowly. You can fight normally. You can make quick steps/dodges, like double tap one direction or shift + direction, that makes infantry move quickly in that direction in a movement. This would be a movement, like a jump, a strike, etc, not a cyclic animation like running, that means not so spammable, and covering a short distance (2 meters maybe).

Why this? As it has been said in that mess of a thread, for both realistic behavior and gameplay.
-Jogging would allow to move fast from one point to another, and to charge/follow the ennemy.
-Walk + dodges would build cleaner fights (if people cannot move fast they keep their line and distance, don't spin so much...), while making it more tactic.

It's more tactic because it is no more about outrunning the side of your opponent, but on the contrary, take the good time to dodge and strike, and work more with the reach of your weapon (it currently matters only on the first strike, then people kiss themselves at point blank). Someone said it would be a worse hit-block-hit-block way of fighting, NO! On the contrary, with this you could actually, for example, wait for the strike of your ennemy, side-dodge and hit him without being hit and without blocking. It would give back good reach weapons their nobility, like the spears: if someone rushes you close, you dodge back, and you regain your reach, wich is impossible right now! If someone goes past your weapon reach (very easily with the current speed and any block/parry), you are dead. With such a feature, you have your chance. There will be more dead times and combat reset like you can see in various duel vids, when the combattants evaluate each other, regain their breath and prepare the next move. I really like that idea of being able to regain a status quo before the next clash; on the opposite of spam fest as seen sometimes in solo and multi. Think about a fight with multiple combattants, and imagine what's possible then: rather than a stockpile of guys spamming at close range their strikes on someone that cannot fight back, it could be: the solo guy dodges back a strike, keep them at good distance, then the adversaries split, use jog to go behind him, and once in circle, close him, looking for a weakness. Far more balanced and interesting, no?

Now, let's see how it would impact other types of combat:

Against cavalry, you can use the dodge movement to avoid them at the right moment. If you don't, you are an easier target (than without the changes). So it requires timing, more "skill" (uww i hate that term, but it pleases some people around here). Isn't that balanced, for cav and inf?

Against archers, you can jog to close them fast, or dodge to avoid arrows. On the other side, when you fight in melee, you are an easier target, unless you dodge well. A good archer will have more chance to hit whom he wants, and a good fighter can make the difference if he plays well. Isn't it balanced?

What about archers? Well, they should walk to shoot, so no more kitting, no more running machineguns. On the other hand they could dodge cavalry, and even infantry to give them a short break to release they crossbow string or take a weapon. Not balanced?

I really do think this would make the gameplay richer, and battles more logical, interesting and nervous.

And i hope this time ScientiaExcelsa read it and understand the interest in both balance and increase in gameplay this could do.

 

[CalenLoki]

I like charging idea, but not as separate special move, but part of Body Balance System, read 2nd page

 

[Kaeli]

I'm against implementing special "moves" like this.  KISS: Keep It Simple, Sirrah.  What I like about Warband combat is that it's simple and flexible and allows you to approximate "moves" well using just the base movement controls.  When you start integrating special attack or movement commands, combat gets monotonous and unbalanced.

Well i think like this, miss your charge and you are screwed as you run past your opponent or get stumbled down or so(momentum) and are an easy to kill target. I think it would offer some sort of extra option in combat as atm, like against ulrist i am out of options. he wont fall for tricks and just attacking  him wont get me anywhere.

 

[Phallas]

Unlike ScientiaExcelsa, i'm not against different types of movement.
However, if it has to be done, i don't think we can keep the current jog movement. It has to be broken down in a slower paced movement and a faster one.
Considering your suggestion of melee charge, for example, it could be implemented while changing the current movement to a slower one. The current speed is already high, already efficient at charging, already gives a speed bonus...

So your suggesting the game be slowed down and sped up, sounds logical

Also if you think the current combat is way to fast, i suggest you stop playing while drunk, no offense 

 

[grimage]

Well, the offence is in not reading my post or playing the dumb.

Read again and you'll understand i'm not talking about speeding or slowing the game's pace, but introducing different speeds for infantry, one slow, one fast, like walk and run in most games, but with deeper customisation for M&B.

And i don't think current combat is too fast, did i say that? I'm just talking about movement machanics that could be enhanced for more interesting combat.

 

[Phallas]

what kind of moron would choose the slower style, it does not matter how much strength you have if the other person is faster then you.

 

[Halcyon]

隐藏

Unlike ScientiaExcelsa, i'm not against different types of movement.
However, if it has to be done, i don't think we can keep the current jog movement. It has to be broken down in a slower paced movement and a faster one.
Considering your suggestion of melee charge, for example, it could be implemented while changing the current movement to a slower one. The current speed is already high, already efficient at charging, already gives a speed bonus...

We already had a discussion about this here: http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,82694.0.html

Here is what i'd prefer, as example:

Give infantry 2 types of movement:
-Jog: Fast speed (current speed or faster). You cannot side-step, and you can only strike once in front of you, then you stop and switches to walk movement.
-Walk: slower speed. You can side step slowly. You can fight normally. You can make quick steps/dodges, like double tap one direction or shift + direction, that makes infantry move quickly in that direction in a movement. This would be a movement, like a jump, a strike, etc, not a cyclic animation like running, that means not so spammable, and covering a short distance (2 meters maybe).

Why this? As it has been said in that mess of a thread, for both realistic behavior and gameplay.
-Jogging would allow to move fast from one point to another, and to charge/follow the ennemy.
-Walk + dodges would build cleaner fights (if people cannot move fast they keep their line and distance, don't spin so much...), while making it more tactic.

It's more tactic because it is no more about outrunning the side of your opponent, but on the contrary, take the good time to dodge and strike, and work more with the reach of your weapon (it currently matters only on the first strike, then people kiss themselves at point blank). Someone said it would be a worse hit-block-hit-block way of fighting, NO! On the contrary, with this you could actually, for example, wait for the strike of your ennemy, side-dodge and hit him without being hit and without blocking. It would give back good reach weapons their nobility, like the spears: if someone rushes you close, you dodge back, and you regain your reach, wich is impossible right now! If someone goes past your weapon reach (very easily with the current speed and any block/parry), you are dead. With such a feature, you have your chance. There will be more dead times and combat reset like you can see in various duel vids, when the combattants evaluate each other, regain their breath and prepare the next move. I really like that idea of being able to regain a status quo before the next clash; on the opposite of spam fest as seen sometimes in solo and multi. Think about a fight with multiple combattants, and imagine what's possible then: rather than a stockpile of guys spamming at close range their strikes on someone that cannot fight back, it could be: the solo guy dodges back a strike, keep them at good distance, then the adversaries split, use jog to go behind him, and once in circle, close him, looking for a weakness. Far more balanced and interesting, no?

Now, let's see how it would impact other types of combat:

Against cavalry, you can use the dodge movement to avoid them at the right moment. If you don't, you are an easier target (than without the changes). So it requires timing, more "skill" (uww i hate that term, but it pleases some people around here). Isn't that balanced, for cav and inf?

Against archers, you can jog to close them fast, or dodge to avoid arrows. On the other side, when you fight in melee, you are an easier target, unless you dodge well. A good archer will have more chance to hit whom he wants, and a good fighter can make the difference if he plays well. Isn't it balanced?

What about archers? Well, they should walk to shoot, so no more kitting, no more running machineguns. On the other hand they could dodge cavalry, and even infantry to give them a short break to release they crossbow string or take a weapon. Not balanced?

I really do think this would make the gameplay richer, and battles more logical, interesting and nervous.

And i hope this time ScientiaExcelsa read it and understand the interest in both balance and increase in gameplay this could do.

big N-O.

This isnt freaking COD4. Movement is fine.

Adding dodge, small sprint with current movement = win

 

[looy]

Hmm, I don't really see why we need it. I suppose it could be balanced but it wouldn't really add anything to the game.

 

[ScientiaExcelsa]

And i hope this time ScientiaExcelsa read it and understand the interest in both balance and increase in gameplay this could do.

Keep your apparent agenda against me out of this thread.  I didn't even debate you in that discussion so I don't really know what your beef is.  If by "interest" you mean "increase", which is the only grammatical sense I can make of your statement, I'm afraid you are wrong.  As I said in that other thread, suggestions like this often sound good in theory but they end up creating bland and restricted combat.

Summary: I hate your idea.  The OP suggestion is better, but still not desirable.  My work here is done.