[Suggestion] Cavalry Lance Balance

[Attacksmurfen]

It's the high speed lance stabbing that causes the problems for infantry, the hit and run tactics. If anything, the high speed thrusting damage should be nerfed so that it doesn't garantee a kill everytime. Cavalry should have to rely more on couched lance attacks for that.
We also need pikes to hurt cavalry charging into them, without the need for infantry to time an attack. Like a reversed couched lance attack. This was how spearwalls worked against cavalry.

 

[Nales]

But what happens if you kill someone and there's another enemy around (which is the case the vast majority of the time)?
The other guy will "camp" your lance until he can steal it, and you won't be able to approach him without your lance. And then you're screwed.
Pretty much like when your horse rears: you know you're going to get dehorsed and then killed, yet there's nothing you can do at all. Very frustrating. Except in this case you're not killed but you're rendered powerless.

I do like the idea, though. Maybe there's a way to avoid this scenario.

 

[Berserker Pride]

The fix for the high speed lance stabbing is louder horses.  Its amazing how easy it easy to sneak up on someone with a fifteen hundred pound animal at a gallop.  I mean If they are going top speed they and their horse will die to you as quickly as you will die to them.  All the game needs is to up that volume and you would know they are coming.

 

[Johnny Morphine]

The fix for the high speed lance stabbing is louder horses.  Its amazing how easy it easy to sneak up on someone with a fifteen hundred pound animal at a gallop.  I mean If they are going top speed they and their horse will die to you as quickly as you will die to them.  All the game needs is to up that volume and you would know they are coming.

That, and fix/widen the stereo so people can tell what direction they're coming from in addition to how close they are.

 

[DeathsShadow]

The main reason people thrust their lance is because couched lancing is retarded, the only way you can kill someone with couching is if they don't know you're coming and even then you stand a chance of just dying how fun is that? thrust lancing may be abused but thats because many people don't know how to kill horses, it's actually quite fun. Take away lance thrusting and they will never be able to kill any inf who have any type of spear guaranteed..

 

[test]

I've been trying to think up ways to balance out cavalry lancing and I think I struck gold last night.

I came up with the idea of having a mounted lance get stuck in a body if it's used to stab and causes a killing blow against a person, provided the horseman is riding fast enough to engage the couched lance animation. The horseman would then have to retrieve the lance before being able to use it again. Lances used in a couch would be retained. This balances out the speed & efficiency of lance stabbing, while leaving the riskier and more skill intensive couched lancing alone.

I'm digging the idea of having to retrieve lances from thrust kills.  It would actually be incentive for people to use crouching, and would balance out the buffed cavalary maneuver numbers vs foot units.  Cavalry would use swinging weapons a lot more too, rather than just poke at people point blank with lances in every situation.

 

[ScientiaExcelsa]

Absolutely no random % breaking.  I want a game in which I know for sure which action will trigger which result.  I doubt many people would agree with us, but something really should be done to put a learning curve on cavalry.  Making the lance breakable at high impact (using perhaps a shield-like HP system as was suggested) would be perfect.  The side-thrusts on a horse don't generally inflict maximum damage, and those are the most common attacks made, so it's not like lances would be breaking every five seconds.

 

[Tartantyco]

The main reason people thrust their lance is because couched lancing is retarded, the only way you can kill someone with couching is if they don't know you're coming and even then you stand a chance of just dying how fun is that? thrust lancing may be abused but thats because many people don't know how to kill horses, it's actually quite fun. Take away lance thrusting and they will never be able to kill any inf who have any type of spear guaranteed..

-It wouldn't be as retarded if the lances were actually, you know, long. The things are about 3-4m and in-game they stick out about 30cm or something.

 

[Narduiran]

Well if you take for example the British or Polish lances that the light brigades (like hussars and dragoons) used in the 19th century, they could measure up to 7 meters in length and the tip was sometimes made to break on impact. The technique used was an overhead stance lowering your lance into your target. I had found some diagrams in the past, but that ikind of information is har to come by and I can't find it anymore.

 

[Harn]

Maybe weaken the lance thrusting some so it's not guaranteed 1 hit kill to someone wearing armor, like in SP. When I play SP I always use an awlpike instead of a lance because thrusting lances weren't guaranteed 1 hit kills against heavier armored people.

I sort of like the spear out of the ground approach, but it just seems so inconstant with the rest of the game to have a weapon function like that. Maybe the trick would be just to reduce the speed bonus the lance is getting from the horse. Perhaps just something as simple as a ceiling to the + speed --> damage bonus you get such that it'll take two or more hits to kill a person (1st one knocking them down at full blast) that might balance it out. That seems pretty easy to try for a beta phase and I think would slow down the rapid fire kills cav are getting.

I like the simple solution of reducing the speed bonus applied to stabs while mounted, as long as it doesn't affect couched lancing or unmounted spears. It's a lot less time intensive than my proposal and generally helps balance out horsemen by further pushing the more difficult couched lancing forward as the viable attack. This makes all kinds of sense to me in hindsight, nice brainstorming session.

In regards to other comments about weapon durability and break chances, personally I don't care for it at all. I want to have a weapon that will do the job I expect it to do, not wonder if it's going to fall apart the next time I aim at someone.

 

[crazycracka]

Since we're talking about couching, I would to throw out there again the idea of raising your shield into a blocking position while your lance is lowered in the couched position.  Right now your shield just hangs by your side. If it gets raised while your lance is couched it would be added incentive to use couching. As it is your shield blocks actually blocks your side fairly well when you have a lance thrust primed and ready to attack.

 

[Harn]

Since we're talking about couching, I would to throw out there again the idea of raising your shield into a blocking position while your lance is lowered in the couched position.  Right now your shield just hangs by your side. If it gets raised while your lance is couched it would be added incentive to use couching. As it is your shield blocks actually blocks your side fairly well when you have a lance thrust primed and ready to attack.

It sounds good to me considering how long it takes to get the lance into a fully ready couching position. I think its around 6 seconds before the lance sets and is ready to register hits. Having to block ruins a lot of time & preparation when couched.

 

[Julia]

  I don't like the idea of random chance controlling anything in this game.  How about this; if you're at full speed, and you spear someone killing them, you will lose your lance depending on your speed bonus, damage caused, and a few other variables. 

So, the slower you go, the more likely you will hold onto your lance, but in so doing you will cause less damage.  Seems like a fair way to balance this whole mess. 

 

[Wonderboy2402]

  I don't like the idea of random chance controlling anything in this game.  How about this; if you're at full speed, and you spear someone killing them, you will lose your lance depending on your speed bonus, damage caused, and a few other variables. 

So, the slower you go, the more likely you will hold onto your lance, but in so doing you will cause less damage.  Seems like a fair way to balance this whole mess. 

You desribe something with alot of variables, it almost is random... You are saying the slower ride then the less chance you have of losing a spear? It still sounds random. It needs to be more clear cut then what you describe.  Like Couched lances never get dropped. Spearing one person with a thrusts causes it to stick. You drop it on strike or you dont.

 

[Berserker Pride]

It isn't really random though because you can control your speed.  Eventually you would get a feel for what speed is safe for your lance.

 

[Julia]

It isn't really random though because you can control your speed.  Eventually you would get a feel for what speed is safe for your lance.

  Precisely what I am aiming for!

Retaining your lance based on the speed of the hit is just one of the variables it could be based on.  It's realistic, and it's the only variable I can think of that would work well for this concept.  Maybe a few more could be added in to determine whether or not you lose the lance?  I don't really know, but this sounds good to me.  It gets tiring lancing people after a while, this would add some flavour to cavalry, and not to mention balance.   

 

[Khalid ibn Walid]

The main reason people thrust their lance is because couched lancing is retarded, the only way you can kill someone with couching is if they don't know you're coming and even then you stand a chance of just dying how fun is that? thrust lancing may be abused but thats because many people don't know how to kill horses, it's actually quite fun. Take away lance thrusting and they will never be able to kill any inf who have any type of spear guaranteed..

This.

I am surprised by this topic.  Cavalry are exceedingly easy to kill.  With only a touch of exaggeration, the only time I get killed by cav is when I'm outnumbered or when I am not paying attention.  Otherwise, I get them (or a piece of them) nearly every time.  And I am not a good player generally.

Cav need to be improved, not nerfed.

 

[test]

I am surprised by this topic.  Cavalry are exceedingly easy to kill.  With only a touch of exaggeration, the only time I get killed by cav is when I'm outnumbered or when I am not paying attention.  Otherwise, I get them (or a piece of them) nearly every time.  And I am not a good player generally.

Cav need to be improved, not nerfed.

WTH, are you playing against people who charge off to the enemy spawn at the start of the round in Battle?  As a foot unit, you aren't going to be killing a cavalry player if they know not to make stupid mistakes. Most of the experienced cavalry players range anywhere from 4:1 k/d to 30:1 k/d, every round.

 

[Crayon]

[

I've been trying to think up ways to balance out cavalry lancing and I think I struck gold last night.

I came up with the idea of having a mounted lance get stuck in a body if it's used to stab and causes a killing blow against a person, provided the horseman is riding fast enough to engage the couched lance animation. The horseman would then have to retrieve the lance before being able to use it again. Lances used in a couch would be retained. This balances out the speed & efficiency of lance stabbing, while leaving the riskier and more skill intensive couched lancing alone.

OHH 

That's a damn good idea.

I for one would love to see this.

 

[Khalid ibn Walid]

WTH, are you playing against people who charge off to the enemy spawn at the start of the round in Battle?  As a foot unit, you aren't going to be killing a cavalry player if they know not to make stupid mistakes. Most of the experienced cavalry players range anywhere from 4:1 k/d to 30:1 k/d, every round.

I play against the same people you play against.  Give me a war spear (usually) or pike, and its horse after horse for dinner.