[Suggestion] Cavalry Lance Balance
- 主题发起人 Harn
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Lt. of the tower 说:
No, because your grip will give looooong before the compressive force parallel to the shaft of the lance would cause it to shatter.
For the record, I like the idea, but sword swings from horseback would need to be buffed a little bit. Right now, they don't actually seem like the hit what is in their path and to hit ground targets, you need to look very far down. They also don't seem to have the range they did in native. It feels unnatural when fighting mounted with a one handed weapon. It's not impossible, just weird and unintuitive.
ScientiaExcelsa
Master Knight
Tibertus 说:Lt. of the tower 说:
No, because your grip will give looooong before the compressive force parallel to the shaft of the lance would cause it to shatter.
For the record, I like the idea, but sword swings from horseback would need to be buffed a little bit. Right now, they don't actually seem like the hit what is in their path and to hit ground targets, you need to look very far down. They also don't seem to have the range they did in native. It feels unnatural when fighting mounted with a one handed weapon. It's not impossible, just weird and unintuitive.
At least it's possible to attack to the left of the horse with a right swing (for example). That was a nice change. I'd definitely like to see lances nerfed and swords buffed on horseback.
As a player who likes both fighting on foot and on horse, I do think this would make cavalry much more balanced.
When I see cavalry going rampage, I always get a bit frustrated about their stabbity lances. It would get much more interesting if they lost/broke it from time to time.
I fully support this idea.
When I see cavalry going rampage, I always get a bit frustrated about their stabbity lances. It would get much more interesting if they lost/broke it from time to time.
I fully support this idea.
alexthegrand
Banned
I agree with what is generaly being said here. the all cavalry spearing doesnt fit everyones taste, certainly not mine and it was a certainly a dissapointment to me when i first got into warband. that said, I agree with what han is suggesting, but i have my suspicions that most will not agree, and that is why i suggested an alternative of a %chance to drop it instead of the guaranteed 100%. I think a fair chance would be 50%. Besides while i dont like the ridicoulous spearing contests everyone engages in, im certain some people like it and i dont want to totaly take their fun away. 100% chance might not be fair to them.
I agree that cavalry just seems too powerful, just for its ability as you said to move across the field wayyyy faster then infantry, and the ability for every shot to be a killing blow. For most cav, we miss with our lance from time to time or just don't have the timing right to hit at full range. When a player does get the timing down with his horse, spear, and lag, AND can aim the spear, people fall like wheat. I know DM doesn't count as much since it is a frag pit of charging people, but there have been a few times I found the rhythm and mowed down 5/6 people in 10 sec just because I found the timing and was aiming properly.
It is another story in battle when you have smart infantry and archers/throwing axes unhorsing cav, but still, they need a little bit of balance.
I sort of like the spear out of the ground approach, but it just seems so inconstant with the rest of the game to have a weapon function like that. Maybe the trick would be just to reduce the speed bonus the lance is getting from the horse. Perhaps just something as simple as a ceiling to the + speed --> damage bonus you get such that it'll take two or more hits to kill a person (1st one knocking them down at full blast) that might balance it out. That seems pretty easy to try for a beta phase and I think would slow down the rapid fire kills cav are getting.
Also if they can get the horses coming from behind you to be a little bit louder that might help a ton also so you can know to spin around and start dodging out of the way and get a shield up possibly.
It is another story in battle when you have smart infantry and archers/throwing axes unhorsing cav, but still, they need a little bit of balance.
I sort of like the spear out of the ground approach, but it just seems so inconstant with the rest of the game to have a weapon function like that. Maybe the trick would be just to reduce the speed bonus the lance is getting from the horse. Perhaps just something as simple as a ceiling to the + speed --> damage bonus you get such that it'll take two or more hits to kill a person (1st one knocking them down at full blast) that might balance it out. That seems pretty easy to try for a beta phase and I think would slow down the rapid fire kills cav are getting.
Also if they can get the horses coming from behind you to be a little bit louder that might help a ton also so you can know to spin around and start dodging out of the way and get a shield up possibly.
Well, at first I am against this... (this is Raghnall, and heavy lancing in my favorite play) If we decide to apply a "breakable" status to the weapon then we should consider what triggers it. I don't like a random percentage on strikes... I propose a lance break when blocked by a shield. I also wouldn't be totally opposed to a decrease in the dmg from lances.
But lets not forget why being mounted is so effective. You are galloping at 20+ miles an hour on an animal that ways 1000+ lbs and all that force is being put on the end of a 8 foot lance point into the body of the enemy... You are going to do serious dmg.
Right now I do see the 40 kills, 5 deaths player sprees. It is an imbalance for horseback soloists who know how to pick out targets not paying attention or exposed. I think most of the people who use the combination know it is slightly to favorable situation.
But lets not forget why being mounted is so effective. You are galloping at 20+ miles an hour on an animal that ways 1000+ lbs and all that force is being put on the end of a 8 foot lance point into the body of the enemy... You are going to do serious dmg.
Right now I do see the 40 kills, 5 deaths player sprees. It is an imbalance for horseback soloists who know how to pick out targets not paying attention or exposed. I think most of the people who use the combination know it is slightly to favorable situation.
ScientiaExcelsa
Master Knight
Wonderboy2402 说:
This is a good idea. The guy still get run down because he can't dodge in time, but he will likely survive and the cavalryman loses his primary weapon. I'd still implement Harn's method of deciding whether the lance breaks with respect to horse speed and damage dealt.
crazycracka
Sergeant
Wonderboy2402 说:
Agreed that is a favorable situation, but should it not be? Should we be 'balancing' cav so they have a penalty for picking off an exposed target? An Inf. group working together(and with VOIP it will only get more organized) is a difficult and dangerous target.
Well if you're going 20+ mph with a 2000 pounds horse, it just makes being blown off your own horse when lancing someone even more probable... ever saw the 'lance' episode of Weapons that made britain where Mike Loades tests out the power of different mounted lance hits? When he couches the lance into the target, it blows past all the padding and gets stuck in the target's wood backing and the impact forces him to let go or get hurt...
*** edit ***
Just watched it again.actually, he drops the lance on every strike, either held out at arm lenght or couched. I'm confident in my belief that the only way to skewer people and get away with still holding your lance is with an above the head stance seen in 18th century light cavalry.
*** edit ***
Just watched it again.actually, he drops the lance on every strike, either held out at arm lenght or couched. I'm confident in my belief that the only way to skewer people and get away with still holding your lance is with an above the head stance seen in 18th century light cavalry.
alexthegrand
Banned
one of the things i take issue with is that while cavalry IS killable with a pike, its only the case if the horse decides to attack YOU.
secondly, weapons other than lances on horseback are vastly inferior to lances, this is one thing that annoys me terribly and that is why i am onboard with making the lance only work a few times.
secondly, weapons other than lances on horseback are vastly inferior to lances, this is one thing that annoys me terribly and that is why i am onboard with making the lance only work a few times.
crazycracka
Sergeant
alexthegrand 说:
And if he doesn't attack the archers you're protecting will have stress free shots. This is a reason they implemented master of the field. Either dismount and engage the pikemen on foot or skewer yourself on a pike, either way you've beat their horse.
As far other weapons on horseback, they work well against archers and xbows who are dodging your lance. Vs another cav who has a lance, not so much.
Lifted from wiki. =P
"While it could still be generally classified as a spear, the lance tends to be larger - usually both longer and stouter and thus also considerably heavier, and unsuited for throwing, or for the rapid thrusting, as with an infantry spear. Lances did not have spear tips that (intentionally) broke off or bent, unlike many throwing weapons of the spear/javelin family, and were adapted for mounted combat. They were often equipped with a vamplate, a small circular plate to prevent the hand sliding up the shaft upon impact. Though perhaps most known as one of the foremost military and sporting weapons used by European knights, the use of lances was spread throughout the Old World wherever mounts were available. As a secondary weapon, lancers of the period also bore swords, maces or something else suited to close quarter battle, since the lance was often a one-use-per-engagement weapon; after the initial charge, the weapon was far too long, heavy and slow to be effectively used against opponents in a melee"
And on the subject of Lancers...
"Although the lance had its greatest impact in the charge, lancers were vulnerable against other cavalry, as the lance proved a clumsy and ineffective weapon (compared to the sabre) at close quarters. By the late 19th century, many cavalry regiments were composed of troopers with lances (as well as sabres or other secondary weapons) in the front rank and men with sabres in the second, the lances for the initial shock and sabres for the mêlée."
So, would it be better to reduce the dmg from thrusts of lances, since that would be considered melee? I know I don't couch a lance, I always use thrust. Perhaps only couched could grant the significant dmg we see currently... The dmg from thrust could be changes to slash dmg (or whatever) and not piercing?
Right now the lance can be effective in melee, maybe a slower drawl back time between thrusts as well?
Here is the youtube video showing lancing in action. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHCpoCSUbW0
"While it could still be generally classified as a spear, the lance tends to be larger - usually both longer and stouter and thus also considerably heavier, and unsuited for throwing, or for the rapid thrusting, as with an infantry spear. Lances did not have spear tips that (intentionally) broke off or bent, unlike many throwing weapons of the spear/javelin family, and were adapted for mounted combat. They were often equipped with a vamplate, a small circular plate to prevent the hand sliding up the shaft upon impact. Though perhaps most known as one of the foremost military and sporting weapons used by European knights, the use of lances was spread throughout the Old World wherever mounts were available. As a secondary weapon, lancers of the period also bore swords, maces or something else suited to close quarter battle, since the lance was often a one-use-per-engagement weapon; after the initial charge, the weapon was far too long, heavy and slow to be effectively used against opponents in a melee"
And on the subject of Lancers...
"Although the lance had its greatest impact in the charge, lancers were vulnerable against other cavalry, as the lance proved a clumsy and ineffective weapon (compared to the sabre) at close quarters. By the late 19th century, many cavalry regiments were composed of troopers with lances (as well as sabres or other secondary weapons) in the front rank and men with sabres in the second, the lances for the initial shock and sabres for the mêlée."
So, would it be better to reduce the dmg from thrusts of lances, since that would be considered melee? I know I don't couch a lance, I always use thrust. Perhaps only couched could grant the significant dmg we see currently... The dmg from thrust could be changes to slash dmg (or whatever) and not piercing?
Right now the lance can be effective in melee, maybe a slower drawl back time between thrusts as well?
Here is the youtube video showing lancing in action. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XHCpoCSUbW0
I'm not in favor of a percentage break at all. I'd like to keep the randomness of this game to a minimum. Giving all wooden weapons a damage bar and then subtracting damage dealt from it is an idea I'd like.
As in another thread, lances should definately break or be lost somehow. Either after the first killing blow (simplest to code?) or some sort of damage % calculation, meaning a high-speed stab or couched hit would almost definately trigger it and the lance would be lost, but an accidental poke against a 1 hp target won't.
You could always slap in a weapon rack or inventory box style thing at the original spawnarea, where you could resupply and maybe get another lance or two. Just a random thought; regardless, losing your lance would effectively end cavalry lancing sprees, or at least make them loot the field for spears or non-broken lances.
You could always slap in a weapon rack or inventory box style thing at the original spawnarea, where you could resupply and maybe get another lance or two. Just a random thought; regardless, losing your lance would effectively end cavalry lancing sprees, or at least make them loot the field for spears or non-broken lances.
crazycracka
Sergeant
Wonderboy2402 说:
I would like to see it more like SP where thrusts aren't always 1 hit kills. Whether it's not the case in Warband because: nobody is wearing armor, or weapon dmg/horse speed may have been tweaked; I don't know.
What I do know is when I load up my native game: where I have 15 str, 5 power strike, ride on a heavy hunter, wielding a balanced heavy lance, and thrusting against well armored troops; it doesn't 1 hit kill them. I just loaded it up and thrusted against 2 groups of 20some sea raiders and the only people I was 1 hitting were the ones I was headshotting. On avg I was doing high 30's to 45ish dmg, with speed bonuses almost always over 100%
I think part of the issue here is the armor in general is too expensive and more specifically the Inf armor.
Berserker Pride
Grandmaster Knight
Yeah I used to survive lance hits back when I could afford mail as infantry. With the new money I very rarely see better than leather on anyone.
Attacksmurfen
Sergeant
I like the idea of dropping your lance more than breaking it. And to have a % risk of that happening when you use it for thrusting, the risk of it happening rices as your speed does so too, so at maximum speed it would be more of a chance to not drop it sometimes. Couched lance would on th other hand be unaffected and so we would see more couched lances and slow horses. People should probably save their high speed lance-thrust to engage other cavalry and so infantry would have an easier time against cavalry.
I support this.
I support this.
Berserker Pride
Grandmaster Knight
I hate % games. I would rather something happen all the time and accept it as fact than gamble with dice on whether or not something happens. Maybe just link losing your lance to the damage you did with that strike. If over a certain number then your lance is stuck. Still not sure if this is a great idea. Tommyhu may be right in that they should just tweak the amount of extra damage you get from speed. Or make low speed lances way less effective. As it is now a horse at a trot will still kill you a lot of the time.
