[Suggestion]Archers are far too powerful

[Mabons]

I'm going to start by saying, yes I'm not that good, and have never said I am. I do get a tad frustrated at the game(Notable with my caps locks rants ingame) but I'm sure there is something wrong with archers. I've already read about 5 threads about archers being far too powerful in melee. This needs to be dumbed down. Archers should also not be able to move while nocking their bow, because it just seems so gamey and unrealistic(for a medieval fighting simulator) for me to charge a lone archer with my horse and lance, and have him just step to the side while nocking and shoot me in the back. Other scenarios include trying to catch up with archers backpedalling, when infantry.

And I have one question: Are bows also able to shoot through shields now? If so, I'm really disapointed. I now HAVE to get a shield to survive? At least give me them for free then...

 

[Merlkir]

Nocking arrows and moving should be possible, but maybe it could be slower?

 

[Mabons]

Nocking arrows and moving should be possible, but maybe it could be slower?

Eh, I can't remember it was about 4 hours ago it struck my mind. Maybe I had thought this...

Maybe the same speed as when you walk through deep water?

 

[mouthnhoof]

Archers are too powerful from range, not in melee. In melee there is no reason why they should be much less than a regular footman. They have a slightly lower skill and powerstrike and have access to less melee equipment. Since infantry rarely use their "best" equipment, since either they cannot afford it or it is not worth it (see: armor), the difference is less than expected, but still. The problem is that from range they are as accurate as a rifle and reload pretty darn fast while maintaining that accuracy.

The xbows  going through shields is complete BS, but arrows do not. If you get hit by arrows with shield raised these are usually hits to your legs, so consider leg armor when facing Vaegir and Nord archers. This and the stupid trick of jumping to get the legs behind the shield when the archer shoots are the only way to protect your legs. A good archer will hit your legs before you get to him and your shield cannot block this.

 

[Daergarz]

Definately not sure how the physic engine handles arrows, but just earlier today I managed to land a throwing axe into the right shoulder of a Rhodok sergeant holding a board shield in the blocking position, facing me directly. I was very surprised and it might have been a fluke angle, but I presume arrows can work in the same way. Definately been shot from just slightly above and they've passed right by the shield into a shoulder.

Anyway, new physics mathingy coming, fingers crossed.

 

[CalenLoki]

Archers are indeed quite powerful, and should be nerfed a bit, or other classes boosted. But I think that nerfing them should go through most possible realistic way. So:
-no, or little to no (like with shield up) speed penalty when nocking arrows (tested IRL)
-no accuracy penalty (accuracy is quite realistic, just targets usually are so close. IRL I am no professional archer, but from 20m (most frequent range) 80% arrows hits static target (human head size), or moving target (human size). And archers in=game are professionals)
-penalty to power draw(-2), accuracy(as current) and reloading speed(x1/2) when walking
-separate and longer animations: (aiming not included, usually 1s)
  -current are:
    -bow: shooting ~2s
    -crossbow: reloading ~3s shooting ~2s
  -IMO should be:
    -bow: reloading ~3s shooting ~2s
    -crossbow: reloading ~8s shooting ~2s
-lower quiver capacity to 24
-boost horse manoeuvrability (to give them any chance to hit archer, no only when he don't see cav, have bad luck or lags)
-boost all foot classes agility (not prevent them from runing (which should be possible), but boost fight to walk time ratio - less chance to be hit, and make aiming little harder and skill based)

After this changes (which all are realistic) balance should be better. Any comments?

 

[Mabons]

I see what you mean Loki. Longer reload times? I think it would make archers stay together unlike the way they all split up and one archer can take out 5 people...

 

[CalenLoki]

Woo! you are first who shorten my nick correctly (Loki, instead of Calen)
Not only longer reload, but what is more important, make animation separate - to force them to use any cover (hard accessible places against infantry and cavalry, mantles against archers, or teammates (including archers, as you said) against everything) and lower effectiveness running+shooting tactic. but running to find some cover should be still viable tactic (so I'm against lowering archers athletic)

Now, best (IMO) tactic (alone) are:
-against archers: stand in open ground (because cover gives you nearly nothing, and can block your dodge) and switch arrows with him. reload while dodging
-against infantry: just shot and run (don't need cover)
-against cavalry: stand in open, with obstacle behind your back (don't need cover from front,only against ninja horses. and full cover can block your dodge) aim at horse, then kill same as infantry.

All that tactics are unrealistic... and this system may get rid of them

 

[PsykoOps]

They're perfect as they are. I for one have IRL knocked a bow while running, full speed and not jogging like the characters on M&B do. There's no reason to nerf that.

 

[Wonderboy2402]

Definately not sure how the physic engine handles arrows, but just earlier today I managed to land a throwing axe into the right shoulder of a Rhodok sergeant holding a board shield in the blocking position, facing me directly. I was very surprised and it might have been a fluke angle, but I presume arrows can work in the same way. Definately been shot from just slightly above and they've passed right by the shield into a shoulder.

Anyway, new physics mathingy coming, fingers crossed.

There were a few points in some games where using the board-shield, i was still taking significant dmg from ranged weapons... which suprised me, because I'm not talking about 1/10th health loss through penetration, but like 1/4 health?

Just out of curiosity, are the small shields (Horse cav shields) faster to wield, as it to raise and block with then the larger for unwieldy ones? (Board shields)

 

[Berserker Pride]

But they do need to put a stop to the reloading in the air for crossbows and bows.  I doubt you have done that.

 

[Tekvorian]

I have never seen arrows that pierce shields. But remember that even with shield, arrows can still hit your foot (and you die like Achilles)

 

[MagicMaster]

Reloading time for a bow?
A British longbow man could fire off 30 arrows in a minute.

Make infantry stronger (armor costs!), don't powerdown the archer's ranged attack. However, I could see maybe a little longer reload time on a crossbow.

 

[Kleidophoros]

8 seconds reload time for crossbows? oh god no, when using a crossbows you are already a sitting duck.

 

[Nosfe]

I'm tired of arguing with all this "archers kill me thus they are too powerful" argument.

But I'll just say one thing; realism is only good if it makes the game more fun.  Backing your argument with "this isn't realistic" means exactly nothing. How realistic is it that you can "shish kebab" 5 people in armor with your wooden lance and the lance doesn't even have a scratch. How about you run into a wall and don't fly of your horse magically.

 

[looy]

I think archers mainly seem OP because everyone runs around in leather armor, it takes like 5/6 arrows to kill a plate-mailed horseman, the money system needs a fix.

 

[Berserker Pride]

Its true the main problem is that infantry can't afford above leather.  Especially when facing crossbowment when getting the best shield is the number one priority.  Back before they nerfed money in battle mode I could take quite a few good hits in mail.  But archers are also too fast.  They have the same or higher base footspeed as any infantry.  Most times they are slightly faster than infantry even if both the infantry and the archer are wearing leather.  Archers all have 6 athletics.  Infantry have either 6 or 4.

 

[Jahoba]

I have a suggestion for the OP:

Don't charge archers from the front with your lance.  And if they turn around and see you, either try to dodge their arrow and stab them, which I manage to do 70 percent of the time, or circle back and try again later.

I don't play much as an archer, but I don't feel my getting killed by them in any capacity has been excessive or unbalanced. 

 

[Halcyon]

I'm tired of arguing with all this "archers kill me thus they are too powerful" argument.

But I'll just say one thing; realism is only good if it makes the game more fun.  Backing your argument with "this isn't realistic" means exactly nothing. How realistic is it that you can "shish kebab" 5 people in armor with your wooden lance and the lance doesn't even have a scratch. How about you run into a wall and don't fly of your horse magically.

+10

Its true the main problem is that infantry can't afford above leather.  Especially when facing crossbowment when getting the best shield is the number one priority.  Back before they nerfed money in battle mode I could take quite a few good hits in mail.  But archers are also too fast.  They have the same or higher base footspeed as any infantry.  Most times they are slightly faster than infantry even if both the infantry and the archer are wearing leather.  Archers all have 6 athletics.  Infantry have either 6 or 4.

And what makes you think you can outrun a person carrying less weight than you? archer are supposed to be fast. Infantry is weighed down by armor weapons and shield. Even if the infantry had the same armor as the archer infantry is still carrying shields and weapons. The archer only carries a bow and arrows that does not weigh that much so i fail to see how they are *too fast*.

Reloading time for a bow?
A British longbow man could fire off 30 arrows in a minute.

Make infantry stronger (armor costs!), don't powerdown the archer's ranged attack. However, I could see maybe a little longer reload time on a crossbow.

+10
at least someone understands.

 

[Commodore_Frank]

My only problems with archers are kiting and shield penetration on crossbows. The crossbows both got near pinpoint accuracy AND shield penetration. I really think they need either one or the other, and I'm leaning toward keeping the accuracy, so infantry can at least advance on them by using a shield. Either that or they need to make the mid-grade shields actually block bolts, because I've had even the second best shields get penetrated.