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[Suggestion] Alternate throwing axe nerf

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Narduiran

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&S
I don't know if anyone discussed this, but browsing some Nord threads and the last 3 pages of threads, I didn't see anything about it. Of course, we're all now familiar with how more expensive the thrown axes are. People are complaining that they cannot afford it in DM, and other people are complaining that some players will just equip stacks upon stacks and spam people with throwing axes. I personally combine the axe issue with the javelin issue, as it's a problem of numbers as much as price.

Why haven't we seen the stack numbers reduced instead of making them more expensive? Stacks of 2 throwing axes is actually pretty historically accurate, and, well, a player could always carry up to 6, which is a lot. Javelins could be reduced to 2-3 per stack, as that's what we usually see in most infantry setups throughout history. Combined with another suggestion I saw elsewhere, which would be to make only the first of a duplicate item free, we would solve a lot of the issues with axe and javelin spamming.

Right now, and bear with me that's only a personal view, I feel that a lot of the setup strategies of many players are central around the thrown weapons, and they get close to no encumbrance disadvantage even when carrying 15 axes or javelins. That's over 19 pounds of steel iron and wood to lug around, and a pretty voluminous payload.

I would rather see them limited to one stack at all times, but this would probably be detrimental to gameplay. But the thing is that throwing weapons are only a bonus, not a main weapon like it's being used as right now. Of course, I do think that one axe or javelin should be able to take down an unarmored horse in one hit as it is one of the main uses it has when facing a cavalry-based faction like Swadia.
 

Foamy

Sergeant Knight at Arms
M&BWB
I agree with everything you've said here. if this plan was implemented i think it would add a lot to the game and cause new strategies to appear and generally make it all more interesting and varied.

I think that there are too many suggestions that assume it should be easy to use all of the weapons. if you practice throwing weapons then you will get more accurate and judge timing better. it's the same with manual block and several other skills.
 

Narduiran

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&S
Yep, and well, that's the point. They are high-damage weapons. If people can just spam attack to hopefully break a shield or catch the feet, it becomes completely unrealistic. 15 thrown weapons: ridiculous. 6: far more balanced.

Anyway, the javelins and axes should be used for something else than to wear down an enemy from full shields/health to dead from bashed shield and axes to the head. They should be used to soften up targets by reducing shield hit points or killing a horse. Of course, you can get some lucky kills from time to time, but they should not be relied upon as a main weapon.
 

Nales

Sergeant
Alternately, throwing axes could be made into the "high damage, low quantity" throwing weapon. After all it seems to me that they take a lot of room when compared to javelins.
Cutting the numbers on all throwing weapons would make them rather frustrating to use, and probably underpowered in the case of javelins and darts.
 

Ragratt

Squire
WB
I believe the amount has already been reduced by 1 per stack. also they must now be paid for, hav reduces swing dmg..  If one throwing axe or javelin could take down even a cheap horse it would destroy the game.  IF something more is done about this i'd suggest either increased cost for duplicate items, as already suggested, or limiting items to 2. ie 2 arrow stacks, thrown weapon, or shields.  Personally i think having 2 free shields is unreasonable but have no problem with someone using them nor do i have a problem with people using multiple stacks of ranged weapons.

Another option.  The starting eq should be free, but any additional items should be paid for.  Right now prices are universal so what is used as starting eq can be "purchased" for free.Honestly i'm disappointed Nords no longer have free throwing axes.  I think Nord vets should hav their free axes but be limited to one stack of what are now the cheap light throwing axes.  As i suggested earlier any additional eq. would hav to be purchased whether is comes as starting gear or not.  Duplicate "pay-for" gear would cost more than the first one selected.
 
I do like the idea of adding cost to duplicate items. There's really no reason Nords, who have points invested in power throw, shouldn't get at least one set of a throwing weapon. Heck, Vaegirs get javelins for free, and Nords can't even get something like darts? Doesn't seem right.
 

Narduiran

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&S
I don't think having throwing axes or javelins powerful enough to kill an incoming horse would destroy the game if the stack numbers were limited. That's the thing. As it is right now, a player with 3 stacks of axes can take down several horses anyway. Of course, he's gonna go bankrupt fast unless he's some sort of killing machine that never dies. Also bear in mind that axes miss their targets too.

Let's say Nords faced Swadians. Because of the danger to horses, the Swads would have to buy the more expensive horses if they wanted to do full frontal charges. Or they could just gamble with going in only with hunters and hope the nords miss a lot. Against Khergits, those axes would be welcome to take down horses of players getting too close to the Nords. because honestly, Nords are at a great disadvantage when it comes to mobility unless we count the close to useless scouts.

Nords should have free throwing axes. But only one stack, and that stack should have less than 5, because with two stacks, it becomes plain ridiculous. People would have no problem facing a nord that destroys a shield or almost breaks it by spending all his axes on it, but right now, not only can he miss a bunch, but when he actually breaks the shield, he still has enough axes to kill the opposing player while backpedalling and avoiding any melee.
 

ScientiaExcelsa

Master Knight
M&BWB
I like this idea.  I wouldn't make them free, though, I'd just lower the present cost slightly and raise their damage a bit.  It'd be nice if they were slightly more effective against shields.  With about 3 weapons per stack spammers would be more careful with what they throw and have to stop more to pick them up off the ground.  This opinion is coming from a die-hard Nord player.
 

Ragratt

Squire
WB
Narduiran said:
I don't think having throwing axes or javelins powerful enough to kill an incoming horse would destroy the game if the stack numbers were limited. That's the thing. As it is right now, a player with 3 stacks of axes can take down several horses anyway. Of course, he's gonna go bankrupt fast unless he's some sort of killing machine that never dies. Also bear in mind that axes miss their targets too.

Let's say Nords faced Swadians. Because of the danger to horses, the Swads would have to buy the more expensive horses if they wanted to do full frontal charges. Or they could just gamble with going in only with hunters and hope the nords miss a lot. Against Khergits, those axes would be welcome to take down horses of players getting too close to the Nords. because honestly, Nords are at a great disadvantage when it comes to mobility unless we count the close to useless scouts.

Nords should have free throwing axes. But only one stack, and that stack should have less than 5, because with two stacks, it becomes plain ridiculous. People would have no problem facing a nord that destroys a shield or almost breaks it by spending all his axes on it, but right now, not only can he miss a bunch, but when he actually breaks the shield, he still has enough axes to kill the opposing player while backpedalling and avoiding any melee.

A horse charging straight at you is an easy target.  Even if the stack was 3 or 4 it would be OPd to be able to kill an unarmored horse in one hit.  Having a horse would be pointless because every cavalry charge would be instant death.  Throwing weapons already take down horses fairly well.

The only reasonable options are to:
1. limit # of possible stacks as mentioned
2. charge/charge more for duplicate items

In-game throwing axes are well balanced right now imo, so i'd rather leave as is then see Nords suffer another nerf.  I would however, like to see Nord vets with a stack of free light throwing axes. that seems reasonable to me esp if either or both of these changes were implemented.
 

ares007

Master Knight
M&BWB
The throwing axes are definitely much more balanced than they used to be. I would be satisfied if they were left how they currently are.


However, I would love to see how it would affect gameplay to have most large throwing weapons reduced to about 3 ammo per stack with possibly a little extra power given to them. Also, with this "nerf", you should definitely be able to pull throwing weapons from corpses and horses.

Ragratt said:
I believe the amount has already been reduced by 1 per stack. also they must now be paid for, hav reduces swing dmg..  If one throwing axe or javelin could take down even a cheap horse it would destroy the game.

How well do you think an unarmored horse will perform with a javelin or axe buried in its head or throat  :roll:
How would it destroy the game? It would just mean cavalry would have to be more careful or use warhorses. Also non heavy cavalry wouldn't be using heavy cavalry tactics, this might help to distinguish Swadian Heavy Cavalry from other light cavalry; it might encourage the cavalry of different factions to use somewhat different tactics instead of each faction's cavalry more or less being exactly the same.

Of course, heavy throwing weapons already get very close to killing a charging cheap horse in one hit.

Foamy said:
I agree with everything you've said here. if this plan was implemented i think it would add a lot to the game and cause new strategies to appear and generally make it all more interesting and varied.

I think that there are too many suggestions that assume it should be easy to use all of the weapons. if you practice throwing weapons then you will get more accurate and judge timing better. it's the same with manual block and several other skills.

I absolutely 100% agree with you. Using throwing weapons should be as much of an art as archery or melee combat.


Also, if somebody says, "throwing axes are already inaccurate," remember this: throwing axes are not necessarily supposed to be 1 on 1 weapons. They are supposed to be thrown from one mob of people into another or into a mob of charging horsemen.

A lot of people don't seem to realize that not every weapon is designed for 1 on 1 combat. There were lot's of weapons that would be terrible 1 on 1 weapons but were very effective when used in mass.
 

Ragratt

Squire
WB
Horsemen shouldnt have to play ninja anymore than they already do.  If you could take out a horse with one throw it would make horses nearly useless.  Players would wait till right before horse charges them take out horse and throwing axe the mount.  That does not take skill  a large target coming at you, that does not encourage skill, it would encourage lameness.  At least now it takes several throws giving the horseman a chance.  Can you imagine a 1 on 1?  The horseman would be more likely to dismount his horse before approaching than charge someone wielding uber throwing axes.  Any charging horseman would be face down almost guaranteed.  Horses would be a joke.  Also i dont understand how you came to the conclusion that throwing axes are not to be used in 1 vs 1 combat, that they were somehow never deigned with this intent.  Throwing axes are already very powerful weapon in many situations including 1vs 1 inf defense and for stopping cav charge they are good AS IS.  Purchase price, imo, is one of the main problems right now, NOT ONLY with throwing axes but with all duplicate gear.  Doing what is suggested in this thread would "fix" one problem by creating another problem but not of cost but one of imbalance.
 

test

Squire
Narduiran said:
I don't know if anyone discussed this, but browsing some Nord threads and the last 3 pages of threads, I didn't see anything about it. Of course, we're all now familiar with how more expensive the thrown axes are. People are complaining that they cannot afford it in DM, and other people are complaining that some players will just equip stacks upon stacks and spam people with throwing axes. I personally combine the axe issue with the javelin issue, as it's a problem of numbers as much as price.

Why haven't we seen the stack numbers reduced instead of making them more expensive? Stacks of 2 throwing axes is actually pretty historically accurate, and, well, a player could always carry up to 6, which is a lot. Javelins could be reduced to 2-3 per stack, as that's what we usually see in most infantry setups throughout history. Combined with another suggestion I saw elsewhere, which would be to make only the first of a duplicate item free, we would solve a lot of the issues with axe and javelin spamming.

Right now, and bear with me that's only a personal view, I feel that a lot of the setup strategies of many players are central around the thrown weapons, and they get close to no encumbrance disadvantage even when carrying 15 axes or javelins. That's over 19 pounds of steel iron and wood to lug around, and a pretty voluminous payload.

I would rather see them limited to one stack at all times, but this would probably be detrimental to gameplay. But the thing is that throwing weapons are only a bonus, not a main weapon like it's being used as right now. Of course, I do think that one axe or javelin should be able to take down an unarmored horse in one hit as it is one of the main uses it has when facing a cavalry-based faction like Swadia.

Hunters can currently take 7+ THROWING SPEARS to kill.  Throwing spears do piercing and are THE best thrown weapons you can get damage wise.  SEVEN+.  Javelins will barely scratch a hunter or anything with more armor.  Right now you need all the throwing weapons you can get to counter horses.

As it is, they're the only thing stopping a couple good cav players from completely overrunning a team full of Nords, right off the bat.  Usually by the time our infantry arrive on a map like Fields, the battle is already over.


However,  I *do* think throwing weapon spam is extremely lame/unskillful.  I think the fix would be:

-projectiles can only be reused from the floor once.  This stops the endless hail of projectiles.  People don't bother aiming because they can just pick up the shots they missed until they hit something.

-increase thrown weapon damage, or revert courser and anything lesser's armor/hp  pre .6 patch so they can be killed in one or two throwing spear headshots again.  There should be a purpose for infantry when fighting Nords (block/absorb/bait out throwing projectiles while Cavalry flank).  Classes should have to work together to succeed, not just mass cavalry to utterly dominate Nords.

 

mouthnhoof

Knight at Arms
WBM&BNWVC
Just because thrown weapons can be picked up from the ground is a good argument to reduce stack size. How many axes or javelins would a real skirmisher carry? 14? I doubt it, especially for axes. Smaller stacks plus the ability to pick them up is a great game balancer - you would not spam them, but not really run out either.

The problem for the nords is that they do not have spears or pikes. The only defense of Nord veterans against cavalry is a hail of thrown weapons. They should get Boar (winged) spears for cheap. Very viking like, and make them less vulnerable to cavalry and less reliant on throwns.
 

Arkanti

Regular
As a heavy user of throwing axes I can say I'd be happy with limiting the maximum we could carry to 5, keep the costs but also let us pick them off corpses/shields. You'll hardly get the chance to do that in a situation that matters anyway, and it does get rid of the machine gun like axe spam of a person carrying 3 slots of axes.

Also, why would you throw axes at the horse? It both has more health and isn't the thing which is trying to kill you, you can get a rider down with 1-2 axes if they're coming at you or stuck up on something.
 

Trelin

Recruit
kingofnoobia said:
If the axes were limited to 2-3 you should be able to pull them from corpses and shields though.

I like this suggestion.  Both realistic and balanced.
 

Trelin

Recruit
Arkanti said:
Also, why would you throw axes at the horse? It both has more health and isn't the thing which is trying to kill you, you can get a rider down with 1-2 axes if they're coming at you or stuck up on something.

Uh, because the horse is a lot bigger and easier to hit, and doesn't have a shield.
 
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