SP SUBMOD - Pendor Rearmed

[Oldtimer]

I think the lack of shields would be a point in your favor if archery and crossbows weren't nerfed as part of the mod. 2h weapon users make it to the enemy infantry line much more often than in the root mod due to this, all other things equal. Protecting ranged infantry is largely trivial.
My point about leveling them up is that the rogue nobles have the same 20-35/40 gap that proper nobles have. This should not be the case. Rogue nobles are far and away easier to acquire, especially since the mod author increased tavern spawns to...2x? 4x? what you'd see in the root mod.
So you can get literally dozens of some of the top archers & 2hers in the game for trivial prices with a lv20 trainer. It makes early game too easy and dilutes the power of lordship.

Hi,

I suspect we may be playing different games, I`m on day 100 in my playthrough and I have not met a rogue noble looking for work in a tavern yet... Not one...
All things considered one may think that rogues of all kind should be STRONGER than ordinary men. They live in constant danger, fight often for their lives so if they survive for some time they should be very skilled. But then they should also be more expensive. One might think pirates, most of them were subsistence outlaws with farming implements for weapons and dugouts(Carribean Sea) with careers spanning a few weeks. But then there were others, strong enough to be a military and political factor. This outlaw pop pyramid applies everywhere.

Rgds, Oldtimer

 

[aubreydarnell]

The T1 troops are called Young Wolf Warrior, Young Ravenstern Noble, Young Baccus Squire, Young Sarleon Squire, and Young Mamluke in this mod. I agree with you that rogues should be powerful at top level.

I think my complaint is more along the lines of the following facts:

• In vanilla PoP, the factional T4 (Rogue x Knight) guys are all Skill 300 and 7/6/6/6/6 spread. In Pendor rearmed, the D'Shar is 300, the Fierds is 320-350, the Ravenstern is 380 Archery. They aren't consistent in their power level. The Sarleon is 330, but he doesn't have thrown weapons like the Fierdsvain Veteran Ulfheddin does, so is completely outclassed. The D'Shar Elite Mamluke is the same 7/6/6/6/6 spread, but the Veteran Ulfheddin is 9/8/8/8/8 with 9 Athletics too! Ravenstern is all 7s, and the others are mostly like the Elite Mamluke. These aren't even close to internally balanced.
• While slightly-to-egregiously more powerful by skill than vanilla T4, that's not the only reason they're imbalanced. The new guys are much more gear optimized than vanilla T4, so they're much more effective. These new guys are more like a Hero Adventurer (T5) for their specialism, especially for Fierds & Ravenstern.
• In vanilla, you go 20>31>35 to get Hero Adventurers. These guys are just as effective or even moreso within their specialism, but due to their 20>35 jump, are so much easier to acquire than Hero Adventurers.
• Tavern hires are now 10-19 troops per hire. It's remarkably easy to acquire massive stacks of these rogue nobles. There's no increased generation of faction nobles from one's fiefs to balance this.
• As a noble, I still can only get 2-4 Nobles/week from a few fiefs, or I can acquire 10+ T1 "rogue noble squires" that train faster than my faction troops, noble or commoner.

I think ultimately it's a problem with how abundant they are and how easy they are to train. I'm fine with them being strong. My opinion is they shouldn't be spammable at the strength they're at in the current version of the mod. And they should be roughly in parity with each other, especially if they're such an attractive troop option.

They're cool troops, don't get me wrong. But it isn't close to balanced.

 

[Oldtimer]

@aubreydarnell

Hi,

just a clarification as there may be a possible misundersting. AFAIU those T1 troops you mention are not rogues just honest mercs. And they do appear in good numbers. What I meant is, say, blackhearts. Those I have not seen in taverns yet, day 103.

Rgds, Oldtimer

 

[aubreydarnell]

Understood. Yeah I'm referring to what the mod author replaced Rogue (Faction) Knights/young noble adventurers with (in 3. "New bits of Lore" section of the OP)

 

[Oldtimer]

Hi all,

can a merc receive offer of vassalage from his employer if successful enough? I have renown of over 1200, no RtR.
I think I saw that opportunity mentioned somewhere.

Rgds, Oldtimer

 

[aubreydarnell]

You have to ask your lord (Marius Imperator, Koningur Valdis, etc). You can't get vassalage from anyone but faction ruler.

 

[Oldtimer]

You have to ask your lord (Marius Imperator, Koningur Valdis, etc). You can't get vassalage from anyone but faction ruler.

I see,

a pity that rulers do not offer vassalage to a successful employee. In RL they did.

THX for your attn.,

Oldtimer

 

[Ldsantana]

Been playing this for a few weeks now. Well done. I really appreciate how you've diversified the noble troop lines.
I would ask that you reconsider the balance, tavern frequency, & levels of your mid-range new nobles (Ravenstern Noble Archers, Wolf Warriors, etc). The fact that you can personally train Ulfhedinn and Noble Wardens at level 20 (or with a 20 companion) is a much more effective option than any other mercenary hire. And the fact that they're as abundant in taverns makes it ridiculously easy to acquire huge stacks of the starter troop.

My complaint is basically that the adventurer replacements you made are OP across the board. It's almost trivial to find a stack of Rogue Squire equivalents, train them to 250+ proficiencies, and use them to constitute the majority of your army early game.

I don't think enough playtesting went into this personally. The new rogue nobles are fun, but utterly decimate other troops. It's clear you intended to make them strong, which is fine, but if they're this strong, they shouldn't be so easy to acquire and train.

My recommendation would be to increase the troop level of all of the new rogue noble troops. Then on top of that, reduce their frequency somewhat within taverns, in lieu of more common mercenaries like Singalians, Mercenaries, Maidens, and the Warden/Sheriff line. You may also want to look at reducing Veteran Ulfhedinn throwing skill, and perhaps Ravenstern Noble Archer archery skill. They both make mincemeat out of pretty much everything else they face.

I've not acquired many Mamlukes, so no comment besides the same leveling request. Sarleon Foot Knights, besides leveling, are fine since they don't have a throwing weapon.

Thnaks for checking out my submod. Hope you had fun with it

On the balance for the rogue nobles: I agree that it's kinda easy to mass acquire and train them, and the Ulfhednar is a little too strong. Reducing the amount you get from taverns and rebalancing theirs skills/gear seems like a good idea. I won't be changing their levels though, because doing so with morgh's editor will mess with their strength in autocalc scenarios (I believe it sets their strength to 0, same with creating new units).

 

[Ldsantana]

The T1 troops are called Young Wolf Warrior, Young Ravenstern Noble, Young Baccus Squire, Young Sarleon Squire, and Young Mamluke in this mod. I agree with you that rogues should be powerful at top level.

I think my complaint is more along the lines of the following facts:

• In vanilla PoP, the factional T4 (Rogue x Knight) guys are all Skill 300 and 7/6/6/6/6 spread. In Pendor rearmed, the D'Shar is 300, the Fierds is 320-350, the Ravenstern is 380 Archery. They aren't consistent in their power level. The Sarleon is 330, but he doesn't have thrown weapons like the Fierdsvain Veteran Ulfheddin does, so is completely outclassed. The D'Shar Elite Mamluke is the same 7/6/6/6/6 spread, but the Veteran Ulfheddin is 9/8/8/8/8 with 9 Athletics too! Ravenstern is all 7s, and the others are mostly like the Elite Mamluke. These aren't even close to internally balanced.
• While slightly-to-egregiously more powerful by skill than vanilla T4, that's not the only reason they're imbalanced. The new guys are much more gear optimized than vanilla T4, so they're much more effective. These new guys are more like a Hero Adventurer (T5) for their specialism, especially for Fierds & Ravenstern.
• In vanilla, you go 20>31>35 to get Hero Adventurers. These guys are just as effective or even moreso within their specialism, but due to their 20>35 jump, are so much easier to acquire than Hero Adventurers.
• Tavern hires are now 10-19 troops per hire. It's remarkably easy to acquire massive stacks of these rogue nobles. There's no increased generation of faction nobles from one's fiefs to balance this.
• As a noble, I still can only get 2-4 Nobles/week from a few fiefs, or I can acquire 10+ T1 "rogue noble squires" that train faster than my faction troops, noble or commoner.

I think ultimately it's a problem with how abundant they are and how easy they are to train. I'm fine with them being strong. My opinion is they shouldn't be spammable at the strength they're at in the current version of the mod. And they should be roughly in parity with each other, especially if they're such an attractive troop option.

They're cool troops, don't get me wrong. But it isn't close to balanced.

Hi! Thanks for checking out my submod!

In regard to the points you made:

- I agree that the balance is a bit off, especially for the Ulfhednar.

- Their gear being optimal doesnt strike me as a problem on its own, but the quality could do with some tweaking

- I did not change their levels because doing so with morgh's editor messes up their performance in autocalc battles

- The amount of mercenaries you can hire was increased to make it feel like the player is hiring a small company/unit every time. Changing the amount you get to 7-14 or so might be a more balanced option.

I'm thinking of making a small update with a few changes for the sake of balance, in the meantime any new ideas and/or criticism is welcome.

 

[Ldsantana]

Hi all,

can a merc receive offer of vassalage from his employer if successful enough? I have renown of over 1200, no RtR.
I think I saw that opportunity mentioned somewhere.

Rgds, Oldtimer

Hey!

Both in the base module and my submod you might receive offers of vassalage once your character gains some renown, I don't know the exact conditions for that or if you can get them while in a mercenary contract though.

 

[Oldtimer]

Hey!

Both in the base module and my submod you might receive offers of vassalage once your character gains some renown, I don't know the exact conditions for that or if you can get them while in a mercenary contract though.

THX for your attn.,

if you consider an update, please make it possible for a successful merc to get offer of vassalage but only from his/hers current employer. That conforms with RL feudalism after all.

Rgds, Oldtimer

 

[Taveren]

@Oldtimer - I think you do get offers of vassalage. In my current playthrough I had offers from D'Shar, Fiernsvains & Ravenstern (even before I was a merc for D'Shar) in the very early game with a party size of only around 50 or so. In fact, I thought it a bit unrealistic to get an offer of vassalage so early, and before I even accomplished anything of note.

 

[Taveren]

@Ldsantana - I believe you must have a special love for the Fiernsvain. Everywhere on forums I read how the Fiernsvain were the "worst" faction, yet with this sub-mod installed they have been the toughest opponents during castle sieges. Their archers destroy, and their low level infantry are already geared in plate mail. Ouch. I had to bring my best Pendor troops to subdue them (Black archers, foot knights, etc - i.e. the noble line. Common troops had problems).
I like the the fact that when you hire afew guys in a tavern, there are not just 1 or 2, seems logical that they would be a "band of brothers". No need to change that imo.
Thanks for adding to my playing enjoyment.

 

[Ldsantana]

@Ldsantana - I believe you must have a special love for the Fiernsvain. Everywhere on forums I read how the Fiernsvain were the "worst" faction, yet with this sub-mod installed they have been the toughest opponents during castle sieges. Their archers destroy, and their low level infantry are already geared in plate mail. Ouch. I had to bring my best Pendor troops to subdue them (Black archers, foot knights, etc - i.e. the noble line. Common troops had problems).
I like the the fact that when you hire afew guys in a tavern, there are not just 1 or 2, seems logical that they would be a "band of brothers". No need to change that imo.
Thanks for adding to my playing enjoyment.

Glad you enjoyed the submod!

On the Fierdsvain thing: their archers have the worst ranged skill, but have better melee weapons. Low level infantry across all factions have better gear than before, fierdsvain get their eagle plate at level 31 (cant remember if the lvl 21 hirdman gets only the banded armor or both banded and eagle as options). Empire infantry have better armor overall.