Sturgia's unplayable

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anoddhermit

Sergeant
The reason I added a shield to Archers is to not make them on pair with other faction's ranged.
Telling the Archers to hold fire and help the infantry would fit Sturgia so well.

I do like when other faction have weaknesses and strengths,something Khuzait doesn't.
Their melee cavalry beats all other units in terms of armour,except for the Cataphracts.
And they have a very good weapon and a couchable lance.

Like you'd lose your mind too having to fight them all the time.
And add salt to the injury,the community reaction to actually balancing their favourite faction is ridiculous.

Like you'd seen them go mad angry at even mentioning Darkhans,Hunters(T3 archers),Lancers (T4-T5) even remotely getting a nerf button.
Units which are so busted,you'd think they'd be noble troops.

I think most factions that are strong right now are strong primarily due to archers.

Sharpshooter / Fian / Khan's Guard are what standout for winning manual battles.

The strategy for beating Khuzait is dead simple: hug the left side of the map with your archers, horse archers clump up at the edge, your archers destroy them, and you win. Again, it's all about archer management currently. Standard archers beat poorly used horse archers, horse archers win in almost all manual battles if managed well, and for sieges you'll want some strong melee on top of foot archers.

If a faction's weakness is its archer, that just makes it a weak faction, currently. Unless its other units are way overtuned to compensate.

For the strengths and weaknesses thing to work out, infantry and cav need general improvements, especially cav without lances or glaives, and/or archers generally need to be toned down.
 

LDominating

Regular
I think most factions that are strong right now are strong primarily due to archers.

Sharpshooter / Fian / Khan's Guard are what standout for winning manual battles.

The strategy for beating Khuzait is dead simple: hug the left side of the map with your archers, horse archers clump up at the edge, your archers destroy them, and you win. Again, it's all about archer management currently. Standard archers beat poorly used horse archers, horse archers win in almost all manual battles if managed well, and for sieges you'll want some strong melee on top of foot archers.

If a faction's weakness is its archer, that just makes it a weak faction, currently. Unless its other units are way overtuned to compensate.

For the strengths and weaknesses thing to work out, infantry and cav need general improvements, especially cav without lances or glaives, and/or archers generally need to be toned down.
Idc anymore dude.
Last time I play this ****ty ass game.
 

Hexnibbler

Recruit
I was skeptical about this, but then I played a test case in custom battle.
Sturgia bowmen are ridiculous. Just did a test of last tier khergit HA vs last tiers of sturgia bowmen. 200 of each.

not. a. single. kill.

also did some test with battania elite melee (flax, veteran flax, oathsworn).

They all beat "linebreakers". Oathsworn only fail IF you don't use their throw weapon. Veteran flax win wether or not they use their throwing weapon or go directly to melee. (200 vs 200).
I also did a test with linebreaker ordered not to use throwing weapon (so they reach melee with their 2h axe vs flax). They still lose.

I'm playing battania on campaign. And yes there are issues with the AI. But this is balance issue.

Example, Champion fian beats khergit elite HA only if you manage to position them on the slope of a hill (so that the khergit "running circles" loses line of sight half the time. If you don't do that, khergit win. Seems balanced to me. But Sturgia archer : they don't even kill a single HA "khan guard" in a 200 vs 200 battle. Their cav can't do the work either and their "elite" melee are being beaten by troops one tiers lower, and by troops of the same tiers that also have spears, throwing weapon and/or shields.

I don't like the "tone" of OP and frustration is no excuse, but he's right about the problem he's talking about.
 

LDominating

Regular
I was skeptical about this, but then I played a test case in custom battle.
Sturgia bowmen are ridiculous. Just did a test of last tier khergit HA vs last tiers of sturgia bowmen. 200 of each.

not. a. single. kill.

also did some test with battania elite melee (flax, veteran flax, oathsworn).

They all beat "linebreakers". Oathsworn only fail IF you don't use their throw weapon. Veteran flax win wether or not they use their throwing weapon or go directly to melee. (200 vs 200).
I also did a test with linebreaker ordered not to use throwing weapon (so they reach melee with their 2h axe vs flax). They still lose.

I'm playing battania on campaign. And yes there are issues with the AI. But this is balance issue.

Example, Champion fian beats khergit elite HA only if you manage to position them on the slope of a hill (so that the khergit "running circles" loses line of sight half the time. If you don't do that, khergit win. Seems balanced to me. But Sturgia archer : they don't even kill a single HA "khan guard" in a 200 vs 200 battle. Their cav can't do the work either and their "elite" melee are being beaten by troops one tiers lower, and by troops of the same tiers that also have spears, throwing weapon and/or shields.

I don't like the "tone" of OP and frustration is no excuse, but he's right about the problem he's talking about.
Try the Sturgian Heavy Spearmen and see it aswell.
Worst T5 units in the game.

Also try S. Noble troops 2-4.
T2 is okay compared to other T2.
But the others?
My man they're trash.
 
You have piqued my interest.
Tell me more about it..
Archers got round shields. They're probably the worst from an archery stand point, but they can fight well in melee compared to everyone else's archers (which I've altered). At least that was my intent with them.

Sturgia keeps shock troops (which I named Sovnnyanik). They kill good.

They also have a form of heavy spearmen too. I think I gave them handaxes or something. But they got good stats and their armour should be good.

The 'Vityaz Guard', who are basically Heavy Axemen, feel like real heavy infantry juggernauts. My own Imperial legionaries are better armoured and hard in their own right, but they actually lose to my Vityaz Guard. They have a chance of spawning with decent greataxes, hand axes or throwing spears. Makes them kill really good.

Horse Raiders get great axes instead of lances. I think its cooler and it seems to make them great brawlers in melee.

I added extra nobles for every faction, and Sturgia gets them too. Varyag Berserkers are basically the best shock troops around. Oh and the Druzhinniks are made more interesting- gave them all glaives instead of lances. So now they have the goodness of the Khan's Guard- only with better melee stats.

Mod is in my signature. Also I like to think I nerfed Khuzaits a bit but not as much as I would have liked

I intended on giving all sturgian troops good armour, but TW messes with the values all the time. So an update might be due.
 

Hexnibbler

Recruit
Try the Sturgian Heavy Spearmen and see it aswell.
Worst T5 units in the game.

Also try S. Noble troops 2-4.
T2 is okay compared to other T2.
But the others?
My man they're trash.
I agree, sturgia lower tiers are workable. Its just that higher tiers are not on par with the rest .
 

five bucks

Squire
Try the Sturgian Heavy Spearmen and see it aswell.
Worst T5 units in the game.
Gotta agree. Last night I was messing around in custom battles and had Heavy Spearmen against an equal number of Legionaries and the Sturgians routed in under 30 seconds of making contact. They didn't use their spears at all, just their crappy onehanders. Vlandian Pikemen are also pretty bad, but Heavy Spearmen must get the "worst all-around unit" award.

I think more people would agree with you if you addressed these matters in a calmer way (and also didn't spam the same thread topic quite so much)
 
First of all, was sturgia nerfed? I thought they were always garbage. Secondly if you want to min max build archers, maybe few troops in shield wall to tank enemy ranged. Most importantly why do you play the vanilla game when there are multiple mods that fix the issue on multiple levels. Most of the problems of Strugia are caused by these things: armor sucks (general problem), melee sucks in comparison to ranged (general problem, but sturgia got bad ranged and khuzaits got both good ranged and HA) and finally TW does not care about troop balance since release, just look at the clearly buggy stats and gear on many troops that is there since release.
 

LDominating

Regular
Gotta agree. Last night I was messing around in custom battles and had Heavy Spearmen against an equal number of Legionaries and the Sturgians routed in under 30 seconds of making contact. They didn't use their spears at all, just their crappy onehanders. Vlandian Pikemen are also pretty bad, but Heavy Spearmen must get the "worst all-around unit" award.

I think more people would agree with you if you addressed these matters in a calmer way (and also didn't spam the same thread topic quite so much)
Yea that's my stupid idea of venting.

It's also that I been flagging these issues in manual battles since Khuzait campain map issue came along.
I feel like it's too much of importance to literally ignore.
 
I can guarantee you that most people in this forum (even in this very thread) would actually like to see better troop trees in general.

You do a great job of alienating them from what are legitimate issues by spamming this so often.
 

snuggans

Recruit
in my imperial campaign i always swing by Sturgia when building back up my party just for Sturgian Heavy Axemen, they have more ranged ammo than Legionaries and its nice to have some axes to wear down enemy shields, when i look at their performance statistics after the battle they seem to kill an unusually high amount of people. those and Druzhinik Champions are what i usually recruit from Sturgia
 

SellSword

Recruit
Dude I don't want to mod this game for something that's supposed to been made a year ago.
I am fairly certain sturgia is the strongest in terms of infantry. Why not try and lure all your fights into villages where you no longer have that disadvantage from the archers.
 

LDominating

Regular
I am fairly certain sturgia is the strongest in terms of infantry. Why not try and lure all your fights into villages where you no longer have that disadvantage from the archers.
You're wrong.
Their strongest B Armour is 66.
They have the strongest Head Armour alongside a few other troops at 52,which in shield wall is excellent for the overhead slash spamming.
But only 1/3 of them get the Lamellar Pauldrons,so they stay at 50 BA.

Others simply don't spawn with it in battles.
50 BA is really good against T1 to T3 troops.
But after that,every bit of BA count just so you don't get screwed over by 1 shot archers or shock troops.
From 50 to 66 is literally 1 more body slash from Darkhans,Legionaries and A Infantry T5.
BA is also important because AI might miss the head and hit the shoulders which I am fairly certain are protected by BA.

Heavy Axeman also don't use a better Axe which is the Battle Axe.
They use Veteran's Axe,this one is my favourite Axe in the game because of the design but it's by far middle class compared to the rest and a few other lower Ts axes,that I say are better.
Try a test with Simple Battle Raider Axe and one with Veteran's Axe,and you'll see.
 

LDominating

Regular
I can guarantee you that most people in this forum (even in this very thread) would actually like to see better troop trees in general.

You do a great job of alienating them from what are legitimate issues by spamming this so often.
Oh dw I'll make a few other posts,not necessarily about Sturgia but about a few other annoying or cool features.
 

Apocal

Grandmaster Knight
You're wrong.
Their strongest B Armour is 66.
They have the strongest Head Armour alongside a few other troops at 52,which in shield wall is excellent for the overhead slash spamming.
But only 1/3 of them get the Lamellar Pauldrons,so they stay at 50 BA.

Others simply don't spawn with it in battles.
50 BA is really good against T1 to T3 troops.
But after that,every bit of BA count just so you don't get screwed over by 1 shot archers or shock troops.
From 50 to 66 is literally 1 more body slash from Darkhans,Legionaries and A Infantry T5.
BA is also important because AI might miss the head and hit the shoulders which I am fairly certain are protected by BA.

Heavy Axeman also don't use a better Axe which is the Battle Axe.
They use Veteran's Axe,this one is my favourite Axe in the game because of the design but it's by far middle class compared to the rest and a few other lower Ts axes,that I say are better.
Try a test with Simple Battle Raider Axe and one with Veteran's Axe,and you'll see.
You put a lot of weight on body armor when judging effectiveness, especially for a game where body armor doesn't really do that much because of all the overheads.
 
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SellSword

Recruit
You're wrong.

Try a test with Simple Battle Raider Axe and one with Veteran's Axe,and you'll see.
Yea well not only that i tried mixing with sturgia vs legionaries... that is a sad thing to watch.mace too strong i guess. Not sure if they nerfed sturgians their melee felt much stronger before than now maybe im just remembering a bad fight where i was using t3 units at the time.
 
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LDominating

Regular
You put a lot of weight on body armor when judging effectiveness, especially for a game where body armor doesn't really do that much because of all the overheads.
Shoulder hits Apocal!
Shoulder hits!!!

You put a lot of weight on body armor when judging effectiveness, especially for a game where body armor doesn't really do that much because of all the overheads.


Spread the word of Sturgia needing a rework,Apocal!
SPREAD THE FCKING WORD!
 

LyonExodus

Recruit
Damn... this is a rabbit hole of someone who forgot to do some research before digging a hole and is now stuck in it complaning about bad tools while all it was was him being unprepared all along.

I don't want to be mean but by the way you are replaying to most of this comments there are a lot of things you are either unaware of or forgetting when it comes to combat.
I am assuming you are playing on the hardest difficulty possible, if you are not (to all players reading this) you may find this conclusions not a reflection of your gameplay.

I am not a bad player and i did a full sturgian campaign taking over the map in under 35 years (not using any exploits) on the hardest difficulty and some really OP units not allowed.
Sturgia has two polar opposite infatries the Axeman is the 2nd best infantry in the game while the Spearman is the 2nd worst. Spears do almost nothing to horses (big flow of this game but with a little research and observation you can reach the same conclusion)
It's almost like i made a full guide about units a few months ago that gave me important results on how they work. You should read it.
The most important things for infatrymen are: Swing Speed of the weapon / Arm armor & Head armor.
Body and Leg are very close to being placebo for infantry. resulting in being used only against cavalry which we don't care about since infantry should be trained to kill other infantry and not horses.

Sturgian archers although terrible are still archers and if used correctly (not a massive line behind the infantry basically, but actually splitting formation and flanking while our infantry tanks) will still destroy most infantry units (and others). Do i think they are the worst standard archer? almost, but they are vikings what did you expect?

Cavalry is awful by itself (across the board), i find myself to only use it to buy time in most situation preferring archers and infantry over them. with this said the Druzhinnik is far from a bad cavalry unit while the horse rider kinda sucks and the javs are close to useless (as basically all throwing weapons due to the terrible accuracy units have with them) unless you have some stupidly high number of Javelin throwers.

Are Khuzaits too good across the board? Yes, of course they are, they basically have no weakness and the strongest unit in the game in the Khan's Guard.

With this said you are forgetting that the Bannerlord AI has a commanding ability that can only be compared to the WW2 Italian army (as an italian guy i know how bad they were) so if you are struggling against it while not limiting yourself to the units you can use i am forced to come to the conclusion that your tactics needs some work, especially if said Khuzaits are not fully trained armies. and if they are remember that you can infiltrate a town and defend it... how good are horse archers against walls?? Spoiler: Not that good.
 
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