Sturgian Hardened Brigand/ Sturgian horse Raider useless?

[Icaurs]

i dont know if its just me but these two units seem completely useless. By far the worse unit in the game imo. Whether the AI takes command of these units or if i take command of them, the result is the same they get absolutely destroyed. When the AI controls them in large army battles they just get them all killed and maybe kill 1 person. To counter this i take control of them instead and find that actually i cannot do much better with them either. does anyone else think these units just suck?

these units to me seem very underpowered. the only way to get them to deal good damage with their SLOW throwing weapons is to charge head on into the enemy and try and pull back at last second after missiles are released. doing this of course results in the enemy archers being able to take 2-4 shots off at your horseman, with longer range missiles which fire faster, which will flatten them though. darting around the edges is how i first tried using these units but they have such short range that you need to be DANGEROUSLY close to the enemy to even hit anything. And once the enemy cav starts chasing you its time to get outta there. now that the cav is chasing you maybe the sturgian missiles can turn around and throw missiles at them? no they cannot as throwing missiles have less of an angle to throw behind, you can throw left and right and just a tiiiiinny bit behind you but not enough to hit any chasing cav. and god forbid the enemy cav catchh you unawares, its a slaughter.

it seems to be that the best option is to dismount these buggers and line them up infront of your archers or infantry, because as cav they are just useless

 

[Icaurs]

please explain to me how they are good units if you vote that way. (without playing on very easy damage)

 

[durbal]

They're one of the strongest units around IMO. They can kill both horse archers and melee cavalry pretty easily due to their javelins, are pretty resilient against missile fire due to their armor and shields, and they're strong in melee because of their sword and shield. Even if they get dismounted they're basically Imperial Legionaries with slightly worse armor.

Best way to use them them depends on what you're up against. If you're mounted then controlling them is easier since you can basically just move around the battlefield at full speed and keep running along enemy units and they'll keep throwing their super-mega-death-missiles. When the enemy is scattered and picked apart, just charge them in and let their swords clean up.

Against enemy horse archers or light cavalry, just charge them in and they'll slaughter them. The alpha strike from the javelins as they charge will kill a good portion of the cavalry and then you can either just keep going with the javelins or tell them to hold fire so they draw swords (or if they get stuck in they'll draw swords anyway). When it's basically stationary horsemen fighting, the raiders will wreck light cavalry due to better armor, a shield, and a better weapon in close quarters.

Against enemy heavy cavalry you can sometimes charge right through if the enemy cavalry aren't full tilt since their lances or spears won't do any damage and your javelins can kill with one hit. If the enemy cavalry are charging you, just have the Horse Raiders follow you if you're mounted and run alongside the enemy cavalry. The enemy pretty much can't land a hit, but with the speed of both forces moving toward each other even a javelin to the arm or leg can kill through heavy armor (300+ damage).

Against poor infantry, especially if they're unshielded, you can harass with javelins pretty much as much as you want. Move full speed toward the enemy, let some javelins fly, then dodge the enemy formation if they're formed up (moving to their side is the easiest, but you can often pull back after tossing javelins without contacting the infantry). If the enemy infantry aren't in formation and are scattered then just plow through them. Again, javelins will do an initial alpha strike, then if you get a bit stuck into the enemy you'll draw swords and the raiders can pretty easily finish off any enemy infantry that don't have two-handed polearms.

Agaisnt enemy archers just charge them in. They'll toss a few javelins on the approach and then then close to melee with the enemy archers where they'll pretty easily kill them.

The toughest opponent for them are enemy skirmishers (especially those Lake Rats) because they're shielded and often hit the mounts with javelins and take down the rider right into a mass of infantry. I do whatever I can to avoid massed enemy skirmishers, but they can pretty reliably be occupied by my infantry or just shot to pieces by my archers, then once the enemy skirmishers get engaged you can usually just charge in the raiders and they'll mop up the enemy.

Basically, anything that can't beat head-on (enemy heavy cavalry, formed up infantry) they can reliably harass until they eventually win, and anything that they can fight head-on (horse archer, light cavalry, enemy archers) they can charge right in and win. They're extremely good as flankers because they beat almost every unit in the game from the flank or rear and enemy units like cavalry that try to protect the flanks can't really stop them.

I run around with a huge unit of these guys (I think I have 50+ right now). Maybe I'll make a video tomorrow since it's a bit easier to see how it's done that way.

 

[pTivo]

They're one of the strongest units around IMO. They can kill both horse archers and melee cavalry pretty easily due to their javelins, are pretty resilient against missile fire due to their armor and shields, and they're strong in melee because of their sword and shield. Even if they get dismounted they're basically Imperial Legionaries with slightly worse armor.

Best way to use them them depends on what you're up against. If you're mounted then controlling them is easier since you can basically just move around the battlefield at full speed and keep running along enemy units and they'll keep throwing their super-mega-death-missiles. When the enemy is scattered and picked apart, just charge them in and let their swords clean up.

Against enemy horse archers or light cavalry, just charge them in and they'll slaughter them. The alpha strike from the javelins as they charge will kill a good portion of the cavalry and then you can either just keep going with the javelins or tell them to hold fire so they draw swords (or if they get stuck in they'll draw swords anyway). When it's basically stationary horsemen fighting, the raiders will wreck light cavalry due to better armor, a shield, and a better weapon in close quarters.

Against enemy heavy cavalry you can sometimes charge right through if the enemy cavalry aren't full tilt since their lances or spears won't do any damage and your javelins can kill with one hit. If the enemy cavalry are charging you, just have the Horse Raiders follow you if you're mounted and run alongside the enemy cavalry. The enemy pretty much can't land a hit, but with the speed of both forces moving toward each other even a javelin to the arm or leg can kill through heavy armor (300+ damage).

Against poor infantry, especially if they're unshielded, you can harass with javelins pretty much as much as you want. Move full speed toward the enemy, let some javelins fly, then dodge the enemy formation if they're formed up (moving to their side is the easiest, but you can often pull back after tossing javelins without contacting the infantry). If the enemy infantry aren't in formation and are scattered then just plow through them. Again, javelins will do an initial alpha strike, then if you get a bit stuck into the enemy you'll draw swords and the raiders can pretty easily finish off any enemy infantry that don't have two-handed polearms.

Agaisnt enemy archers just charge them in. They'll toss a few javelins on the approach and then then close to melee with the enemy archers where they'll pretty easily kill them.

The toughest opponent for them are enemy skirmishers (especially those Lake Rats) because they're shielded and often hit the mounts with javelins and take down the rider right into a mass of infantry. I do whatever I can to avoid massed enemy skirmishers, but they can pretty reliably be occupied by my infantry or just shot to pieces by my archers, then once the enemy skirmishers get engaged you can usually just charge in the raiders and they'll mop up the enemy.

I run around with a huge unit of these guys (I think I have 50+ right now). Maybe I'll make a video tomorrow since it's a bit easier to see how it's done that way.

+1 VERY good analysis

 

[Maximum997]

because as cav they are just useless

I use them to stay in the back to protect the archers and then chase enemies.

And AI cav just sucks with swords. I had 10 companions with swords and 5 knights with spears. And even against looters spear cav got 2 times more kills.

 

[durbal]

BTW, if you don't have a bunch of these guys when fighting against Khuzait your life will be a lot harder. IMO, hardened brigands/horse raiders are the best horse archer counter in the game. They beat them soundly in all phases of combat.

 

[Icaurs]

Ill have to give those tactics a go. in my experience so far the horse raiders just suck ass but then again i do mainly play infantry and archer based so i dont really use many cav so my tactical awareness for them is pretty lackluster. Also ive not fought khuzait once yet. every time i play i end up with wars vs all factions except khuzait and asserai

 

[Icaurs]

CAN PEOPLE NOT vote for the option which i put DONT PICK THIS.







seriously now.

 

[Koshkasa]

Both of these units rock against enemy light cav/horse archers. Light cav takes significant casualties from Sturgian cav even before the engagement moves into melee range, and horse archers tend to get their horses nuked and turn into squishy sharpening wheels for your infantry.

Rushing them into shielded infantry is a bad idea though.

 

[Maximum997]

Both of these units rock against enemy light cav/horse archers. Light cav takes significant casualties from Sturgian cav even before the engagement moves into melee range, and horse archers tend to get their horses nuked and turn into squishy sharpening wheels for your infantry.

Yes. Against horses they are pretty good. But regular archers are fine too.

 

[Freedzone]

They can do some serious damage with javs, but thats it. Horse archers will simply outkite brigs in a long fight, you need at least 2-3x more brigs to counter them. Sword cavalry is pretty bad in this game, so i let them to fire all their javs, then go back and dismount and here you have some extra of decent infantry.
Also, while in the follow mode, brigs rarely do throws, at least in other cavalry.

 

[ProsteCech]

They're one of the strongest units around IMO. They can kill both horse archers and melee cavalry pretty easily due to their javelins, are pretty resilient against missile fire due to their armor and shields, and they're strong in melee because of their sword and shield. Even if they get dismounted they're basically Imperial Legionaries with slightly worse armor.

Best way to use them them depends on what you're up against. If you're mounted then controlling them is easier since you can basically just move around the battlefield at full speed and keep running along enemy units and they'll keep throwing their super-mega-death-missiles. When the enemy is scattered and picked apart, just charge them in and let their swords clean up.

Against enemy horse archers or light cavalry, just charge them in and they'll slaughter them. The alpha strike from the javelins as they charge will kill a good portion of the cavalry and then you can either just keep going with the javelins or tell them to hold fire so they draw swords (or if they get stuck in they'll draw swords anyway). When it's basically stationary horsemen fighting, the raiders will wreck light cavalry due to better armor, a shield, and a better weapon in close quarters.

Against enemy heavy cavalry you can sometimes charge right through if the enemy cavalry aren't full tilt since their lances or spears won't do any damage and your javelins can kill with one hit. If the enemy cavalry are charging you, just have the Horse Raiders follow you if you're mounted and run alongside the enemy cavalry. The enemy pretty much can't land a hit, but with the speed of both forces moving toward each other even a javelin to the arm or leg can kill through heavy armor (300+ damage).

Against poor infantry, especially if they're unshielded, you can harass with javelins pretty much as much as you want. Move full speed toward the enemy, let some javelins fly, then dodge the enemy formation if they're formed up (moving to their side is the easiest, but you can often pull back after tossing javelins without contacting the infantry). If the enemy infantry aren't in formation and are scattered then just plow through them. Again, javelins will do an initial alpha strike, then if you get a bit stuck into the enemy you'll draw swords and the raiders can pretty easily finish off any enemy infantry that don't have two-handed polearms.

Agaisnt enemy archers just charge them in. They'll toss a few javelins on the approach and then then close to melee with the enemy archers where they'll pretty easily kill them.

The toughest opponent for them are enemy skirmishers (especially those Lake Rats) because they're shielded and often hit the mounts with javelins and take down the rider right into a mass of infantry. I do whatever I can to avoid massed enemy skirmishers, but they can pretty reliably be occupied by my infantry or just shot to pieces by my archers, then once the enemy skirmishers get engaged you can usually just charge in the raiders and they'll mop up the enemy.

Basically, anything that can't beat head-on (enemy heavy cavalry, formed up infantry) they can reliably harass until they eventually win, and anything that they can fight head-on (horse archer, light cavalry, enemy archers) they can charge right in and win. They're extremely good as flankers because they beat almost every unit in the game from the flank or rear and enemy units like cavalry that try to protect the flanks can't really stop them.

I run around with a huge unit of these guys (I think I have 50+ right now). Maybe I'll make a video tomorrow since it's a bit easier to see how it's done that way.

Sorry but where did you get the information that their armor is good? Their armor for a T5 unit is terrible, once they throw their javelins they are good as useless and iirc their horse doesnt even have armor so it goes down quick and they will usually be picked off pretty quickly after that. But they still have a use cause of the potential to oneshot a good unit with javelins or as anticavalry but for me they are just fodder and there to fill up that cavalry spot for sturgia

 

[Fantomen]

Javelins are very strong in general, so there's that.

There is definitely a problem with the AI being bad at using swords and other short weapons effectively from horseback though, so that makes them worse than they should be. Cavalry with spears or lances are definitely better in melee right now even against other cav. Ideally this gets fixed and mounted skirmishers get a stronger niche for countering other kinds of cavalry, they feel designed to take down horse archers, with a shield to catch arrows, javelins to kill the horse and a good sword for the melee fight, which is a great set of gear as a player to attack horse archers, but I'm not sure it's currently working as well for the AI as it should in theory.

From a power gaming perspective It's also a little hard to justify anything but high tier archers and horse archers in campaign right now given that you can just set them up in a line and mow down pretty much unlimited enemy troops that way with almost no casualties. Hopefully we'll see both better weapon balance and the AI being able to play better against archers down the line, so that a varied mix of troops isn't just motivated by role playing but actually becomes a good strategy. But right now nothing really compares to archer spam in strength.

 

[Earth Dragon]

I feel they are the Second-Best Skirmish Cav in the game (using skirmish by some traditional definitions of the troop effective range range between your archers and spear line) with only the Aserai having a better line here (which as a side note, I feel that WHOLE line should be geared to filling this role, not the first two positions being trash Shock Cav/light Cav/rear guard Cav).

They have two racks of powerful Javelins, that allow for the better side of a trade with horse archers in the opening of a battle, and are sturdier then their detractors would have you believe once reduced to melee combat, on and off the horse.

They also trade well Cataphracts, Knights and others as they still have that ranged component lacking from those lines entirely.

Once you start to run out of ammunition, you can retreat them behind your lines to allow the depleted and bleeding Cavalry to be finished off by your Archers and infantry (and Sturgia has some of the easier access to Archers, with early access to further Javelin fire).

After this, you can wheel them around for the typical mop up of the opposing archery component while infantry lines clash.

These guys, like you would expect of Skirmish Cav, are just way more hands on then your average chumly. So if you don’t want to micro your Cav that much, stick to Horse Archers, or Heavy Cav. But if you want to “raid” sections of the opposition, these Raiders do just fine.

 

[TheycallmeCoconutJones]

as long as they have their javalins they are not bad, but the moment they blow all their ammo they are a very sub par unit, its also one of the only cavalry lines that starts and stays as a light cav. it need a bit of a rework imo the boom bust of the unit is just too much

 

[durbal]

Sorry but where did you get the information that their armor is good?

31 body armor and more or less the equivalent stuff on the rest of them is passable for their type of unit. It's better or equivalent to that from other factions and with lighter weight.

Also, swords on cavalry are pretty good, especially in cav-vs-cav battles when they're stuck in. Better than spears for sure.

 

[TheycallmeCoconutJones]

31 body armor and more or less the equivalent stuff on the rest of them is passable for their type of unit. It's better or equivalent to that from other factions and with lighter weight.

Also, swords on cavalry are pretty good, especially in cav-vs-cav battles when they're stuck in. Better than spears for sure.

uhh what, every other light cavalry unit in the game upgrade into heavy cav of some kind or the other, even Battania has better armor and upgrade potential which is sad. the only other one the doesn't upgrade into heavy cav is the Bucellarii which is the single common horse unit the Empire gets and has 70 armor......

Sturgia is the only one that starts and stays light cav with pathetic armor values for both its rider and its horse at teir 4 and 5.

 

[Sarissofoi]

They have plenty of battanian clothing.
Also their melee weapon are really short - why they don't have long sabres is beyond me.
I seen them charging with javelins in melee if you use F4 command.

 

[Wulfrik The Wanderer]

ran a few custom battles just now

These units are trash......

 

[110951667]

I vote the first option and here is the reason:

Their problem is that the AI sent them out quite early on in a battle, so in a battle between two armies, they will face either a number of horse archers or facing little to none horse archers.
In the first case they will do fine, like others already talked about, but in the second case, they will kill the opponent's horse archers quickly and then start to harrass the enemy's footmen, here comes the problem, they may kill one or two but probably loose more. When I got sturgian recruits, I never upgrade them to brigand branch because of this.