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Sturgia worst performing faction, due to having the worst Troop tree, Liege AI, Economy and Geography.
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Thanks for adding all my info to the first post @Nero_Roman, was worried it was going to be buried! Just a quick update on my testing, I've been experimenting with Druzhinniks, and they are quite good units even with bugged stats. I've really warmed up to them.
A couchable lance + a good shield really is a winning combination, a combination that I prefer compared to the 2 handed polearm of the cataphract. Yes, they lose to all other noble heavy cav, but what's I've learned is that they are not an anti-cav unit. They are a hammer-anvil shock cavalry unit. The second hidden benefit of Druzhinniks is that they don't require a war horse until the last tier, and the second to last tier has basically the same gear as the final tier, so you can have an extremely effective Heavy Cavalry core even if you don't have any war horses!
My recommendation for an army comp would be 50% veterans, 50% shock troops with an optional contingent of Druzhinniks. You form with with a wide, 1 rank deep line of veterans followed immediately by a 1 rank line of shock troops. This will buzz saw through pretty much anything.
A couchable lance + a good shield really is a winning combination, a combination that I prefer compared to the 2 handed polearm of the cataphract. Yes, they lose to all other noble heavy cav, but what's I've learned is that they are not an anti-cav unit. They are a hammer-anvil shock cavalry unit. The second hidden benefit of Druzhinniks is that they don't require a war horse until the last tier, and the second to last tier has basically the same gear as the final tier, so you can have an extremely effective Heavy Cavalry core even if you don't have any war horses!
My recommendation for an army comp would be 50% veterans, 50% shock troops with an optional contingent of Druzhinniks. You form with with a wide, 1 rank deep line of veterans followed immediately by a 1 rank line of shock troops. This will buzz saw through pretty much anything.
pras
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To cut to the chase. Sturgia doesn't have geographical prerequisites to justify plentifulness and diversity of cavalry. Read their description "frozen" "woodland" etc. not a common place for horse masters. Doesn't matter who they border. Look at the map, they don't have any flatlands worth mentioning that isn't almost year round snow and ice (that I can guarantee turns into huge areas of swampland when it thaws... look at Siberia). The only place they have some flatlands is that postal stamp worth of grass sout of Ov which is nowhere near the Khuzhaits.
They can always take a walk to the steppes and hire mercenaries on the other hand.
I think this is reflected well in the current troop tree as long as they make a modification to the druzhina tree (IMO they should be on the horses since T2 as light spear cav and T3 and on they should be what they are now but with fixed stats) the only trick would be to make the AI mass and use them correctly.
Read if you want:
Can tell you for sure that those you mentioned didn't turn into missile cavalry experts en mass because they saw Tatars do it.
Even the Hungarians that you could argue are some sort of Avar/Hunic and who knows what else mix, had Cumans do it at one point because themselves were already too Europeanised in their army composition.
Later Poles got the idea of hussars from Hungarians not from Tatars that they bordered. Hungarians themselves didn't invent it either but "got" it from immigrant Serbians that literally had to fight for the Turks but at one point ended up in Hungary and fought for them as mercenaries. You could argue about the Cossacks but they have Tatars in their lineage somewhere. BTW most of this stuff described happened well after early middle ages Europe Bannerlord is based on. None of the peoples you mentioned were a cav powerhouse of any kind in that time period.
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They are good when examined in an isolated environment (and with fixed stats), but being the sole melee cavalry of Sturgia, in a typical battlefield they do not perform well because they are always overwhelmingly outnumbered if facing a faction with access to non-noble melee cavalry (which is all other factions, to my knowledge, atleast all factions that they border).
They could indeed stay as they are (with fixed stats), but I still think they would need more melee cavalry to accompany them. Otherwise they should get turned into an elite infantry unit. That's my opinion on the matter regarding the Sturgian noble line.
This is a lot of information, you focused on weak points by looking at individuals units but failed to understand what makes them strong. They excel in zerg, chaotic battles - use the missle cav to break up enemy infantry balls while your infantry charges in and you will find that they are exceptional.
But this isn't even their real strength. They are really easy to train up making it very easy to replenish lost armies, I found getting brigand cavalry on them was fastest and most consistent of any faction. Even if they aren't the best units, I find them to be the best return on xp investment - and given that you can't really have anything other than your main army at a certain point in the game (at 3+ cities it's literally impossible to do anything other than food trading if you want to keep your garrisons stocked with more than 100 men - then when you go out across the map and return you find them stocked with 0-20 units after a week because some lord with 20 units managed to make it all the way through enemy lands just to raid your villages, prettttty cool).
But this isn't even their real strength. They are really easy to train up making it very easy to replenish lost armies, I found getting brigand cavalry on them was fastest and most consistent of any faction. Even if they aren't the best units, I find them to be the best return on xp investment - and given that you can't really have anything other than your main army at a certain point in the game (at 3+ cities it's literally impossible to do anything other than food trading if you want to keep your garrisons stocked with more than 100 men - then when you go out across the map and return you find them stocked with 0-20 units after a week because some lord with 20 units managed to make it all the way through enemy lands just to raid your villages, prettttty cool).
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pras
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Yeah pushing for more cav for peoples which live in conditions that don't enable more cav doesn't make sense. Just because they are missing it on the battlefield doesn't mean they should to get it. Apply same treatment to all factions and suddenly you don't have factions but a faction with different flags like Empires and that is boring.
IMO the shortcoming should be addressed by AI in a way that they hire mercenary units.
IMO the shortcoming should be addressed by AI in a way that they hire mercenary units.
The player can make anything work, but the AI is a big concern, since they will not be using different unit types the way a player can. Whether we are able to make use of the few cavalry Druzhinniks that we have, along with our infantry and our brigands, doesn't matter. My primary concern is the AI and how they will work with the units available to them. If this is not adressed, then Sturgia will keep getting steamrolled.
Besides, I think you missunderstood which unit we were talking about. The Druzhinnik is Sturgias melee cavalry, not the Brigands. Or perhaps I missunderstood you somehow idk.
Sure, if that is also Taleworlds opinion, then the Druzhinniks need to be turned into an infantry unit. Either way, we can't have Druzhinniks being the sole melee cavalry for Sturgia. Either Sturgia needs more melee cavalry, or the Druzhinnik needs to become infantry, and if that happens the Lords needs to fight on foot with the infantry, much like the Battanian lords fight on foot with the archers.
That is fair, if the AI being steamrolled was a consistent argument, I'd agree. However, I've seen Sturgia conquer most of the world - same with vladia, same with battian, same with khuzait. Only faction that I've seen consistently get destroyed is the western empire. They seem to die early and often in every play through I've had. It seems fairly balanced to me, everyone reports a different situation they happen to see commonly - it may have something to do with how our play style affects the world. For instance, every game that I recruit a lot from a specific area and kill all the looters there and buy all their food in the early game, they seem to be unable to recover and end up being one of the first kingdoms to fall.
OP was targeting how many different units are the worst performing, I was referring to that. Not sure how a specific unit would fix AI issues.
Well, I must say that you must've witnessed something exceedingly rare then. The overwhelming consensus is that Sturgia is the worst performing faction, and that they are the ones who get wiped out the first most commonly. Of course a certain chain of events can occur where this is not the case, as seem to have happened in your case, but most people are reporting Sturgia being wiped out the first most commonly, to the point where it's garantueed to happen.
There are alot of changes that need to be made, including AI behaviour but also army compositions and the AI lords actually training units in their armies, etc. .
All I've proposed regarding the Druzhinniks is this: Either they need to be accompanied by more melee cavalry in order to not be completely useless when controlled by the AI (If the AI even has any Druzhinniks to begin with, so far I've seen EXTREMELY FEW of them). If no more melee cavalry is added, then they might aswell just be turned into an infantry unit so they will, once again, not be completely useless when controlled by the AI.
This suggestion obviously only affects the AI's performance in non-simulated battles when the units are controlled by the AI. It does not affect player performance or simulation performance. In those areas, I've made other suggestions which would affect them.
There are alot of changes that need to be made, including AI behaviour but also army compositions and the AI lords actually training units in their armies, etc. .
All I've proposed regarding the Druzhinniks is this: Either they need to be accompanied by more melee cavalry in order to not be completely useless when controlled by the AI (If the AI even has any Druzhinniks to begin with, so far I've seen EXTREMELY FEW of them). If no more melee cavalry is added, then they might aswell just be turned into an infantry unit so they will, once again, not be completely useless when controlled by the AI.
This suggestion obviously only affects the AI's performance in non-simulated battles when the units are controlled by the AI. It does not affect player performance or simulation performance. In those areas, I've made other suggestions which would affect them.
6 play throughs, seen that happen a single time - mostly because I heavily recruited there from early to mid game. Also have seen many conflicting reports as well, so I don't know what consensus you're referring to. I guess my point would be, why should it matter if sturgia loses often - as long as you as a vassal are still able to conquer the world with them?
I agree, I haven't seen a lot of the Druz cavalry and I agree that the AI lords need to train units more. But as I said in my original post, the missle cav is far easier to train than any other cav unit - so the lack of the Druz in a campaign where Sturgia is losing makes a lot of sense. That's just a symptom, not the actual problem.
The issue is that the AI is way too aggressive currently - it frequently starts wars and needs to defend or attack something constantly - never giving it time to actually get anything other than recruits (because all the vassals are doing the same thing and the towns are empty). Basically factions don't seem to stay in peacetime for more than a few days and that causes a lot of problems, especially for factions that are losing. A losing faction should seek peace often, and a winning faction shouldn't repeatedly declare war - a treaty would help alleviate some of the issues. Especially as the player when you buy peace just to have that faction immediately declare war on you again within a second or two. Pretty frustrating to deal with in the mid game.
I agree, I haven't seen a lot of the Druz cavalry and I agree that the AI lords need to train units more. But as I said in my original post, the missle cav is far easier to train than any other cav unit - so the lack of the Druz in a campaign where Sturgia is losing makes a lot of sense. That's just a symptom, not the actual problem.
The issue is that the AI is way too aggressive currently - it frequently starts wars and needs to defend or attack something constantly - never giving it time to actually get anything other than recruits (because all the vassals are doing the same thing and the towns are empty). Basically factions don't seem to stay in peacetime for more than a few days and that causes a lot of problems, especially for factions that are losing. A losing faction should seek peace often, and a winning faction shouldn't repeatedly declare war - a treaty would help alleviate some of the issues. Especially as the player when you buy peace just to have that faction immediately declare war on you again within a second or two. Pretty frustrating to deal with in the mid game.
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pras
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Seriously we will go through every possible cav unit you can get from google? A 16th century horse unit which fits in a world where European armies were converging on a rather same kind of cookie cutter military format, for which they didn't get the idea from observing their Mongol neighbours that they didn't have?
Yep that is the jav cav. It is not the best light cav around and is primarily used for skirmishing but you can't say they don't have it. What is the point of having all factions with an all round well covered unit tree? This doesn't make any sense considering each faction lives in their own specific environment.
Each faction should have shortcomings and places where they are strong and the point of the player is to work around those.
Granted Sturgia is in a bad spot with reasonable shortcomings but badly balanced inf which is where they should be strong. Noble line gets on horses 1 tier too late IMO as well.
Yes I do indeed hope they will implement it. And when that happens I hope people won't be advocating for Khuzaits having a well rounded naval options either.
You make a good point, however I would argue that it is fine as it is (it needs overall balancing and tweaking that berserker line and noble line) the problem here is that Sturgian AI and absolutely horrible placement on the map. Stupidly warmongering like zfingar mentioned and the fact that the lands are linear and split in half then turns out into one half not being able to effectively suppor the other. That is also the reason they get wiped out in most of my play-throughs.
IMO TW should tweak the AI so that they aren't rushing in and loosing their fresh army every time. They should be smarter about it, let their stacks get vet, grow some nobe cav and then go about declaring war on everyone. And when that happens they should attack and take fiefs that can be supported not going through 1/3 of the enemy territory and take a city they have absolutely no way of keeping.
If that is not possible then your reasoning of nobles fighting on foot is the best alternative.
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VanHoven
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Well i have like... 10 playthroughs now and sturgia never once hold a city outside their home territory for longer than a few weeks, they always have been taken out first. Though on the latest one started with 1.20 beta they, and everyone else, hold almost all their starting towns a year into the game, a first one for me. I think that observation matters because I'd prefer the factions without player intereference to be somewhat balanced.
There was a thread in the beginning of the ea that showed how the factions develop over maybe a 100 games in each patch, and sturgia did the worst on average. That inclines some sort of disbalance in faction power, maybe their troops are worse or their geography is bad, maybe there are economic problems from having not enough food sources, idk most likely a combination of all of these factors and then some more. When I tried playing with sturgia i found their roster a bit... lackluster tbh. the lack of cavalry is really showing, in warbands the nords had at least really badass infantery but sturgia do not have an edge over the other factions in that regard. the mounted skirmishers are... a nice touch, but have too few projectiles to matter and are too weak when they run out of them.
I see no reason both can't be done. In my thread (part of this new merged thread) I've laid out suggestions that hopefully cover most if not all of Sturgias problems. The main issues are, as you said, geography, economy, some faults on the AI's side, not necessarily the troop trees (overall in Bannerlord right now), but specifically in the case of Sturgia, the troop tree and the synergy between the troops is really really lacking. I stand firmly by that the Druzhinniks need more melee cavalry to support them, or the Druzhinniks (and the Lords) needs to become infantry. This would really help Sturgian non-simulated AI controlled battle performance (and they really need help here).
pras
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True. Mostly they get bumm rushed by Vlandians from which they sometimes recover but mostly don't. Then they declare war on Khuzhaits which wipe them almost completely. At least that is my experience. And from my observations that is because the terrain they have to work with it too challenging for the AI to handle. Basically it narrowly stretches through the whole northern width of the map and is cut in half. They have not chance of supporting their west and east since the AI is not capable of handling those two land masses effectively since everything is linear and it takes too long to go from one end to the other.
The only thing that can save them is either completely change their lands (I bet they would fare better if they had lands nicely homogenous like Battanians) or introduction of quicker transport which is ships.
Just to give an example of what I'm talking about when I stress the importance of Sturgian lords and Druzhinniks needing better protection with either more melee cavalry to accompany them, or turning them into infantry:
I just fought a battle of 1000 Sturgian army vs 500 Imperial army.
- The battle began with the Sturgian infantry force moving towards the enemy position.
- Meanwhile, the brigands went ahead of the infantry to skirmish with the enemy.
- Since all Sturgian lords spawn on horseback and evidently with bows & arrows, they are counted amongst the same group as the brigands. And due to having much higher riding skill, they ended up ahead in front of the whole brigand force.
- This resulted in ALL of the Sturgian lords in the 1000 strong Sturgian army being the FIRST casualties of the battle as the skirmishers charged against the enemy archers. Not very lordly combat if you ask me.
- Now, the brigands achieved their purpose of course, they inflicted massive damage on the enemies massed infantry force, and then scattered around before taking too much casualties themselves.
- Meanwhile, the 500+ Sturgian infantry traded roughly 1 to 1 against the ~250 or so Imperial infantry. Surely the odds should've been much more heavily in the Sturgian favour, seeing as the Sturgian infantry was both double in number and is supposed to be the Sturgians main strength. Having the Sturgian lords fighting in the infantry aswell as the Druzhinniks being part of the infantry as opposed to a meagre cavalry force would've not changed this too much, but atleast helped it push more in Sturgian favour.
This is why I keep making the suggestions that I do regarding a number of potential changes to Sturgian Druzhinniks and Lords, and potentially adding melee cavalry as being another alternative.
I just fought a battle of 1000 Sturgian army vs 500 Imperial army.
- The battle began with the Sturgian infantry force moving towards the enemy position.
- Meanwhile, the brigands went ahead of the infantry to skirmish with the enemy.
- Since all Sturgian lords spawn on horseback and evidently with bows & arrows, they are counted amongst the same group as the brigands. And due to having much higher riding skill, they ended up ahead in front of the whole brigand force.
- This resulted in ALL of the Sturgian lords in the 1000 strong Sturgian army being the FIRST casualties of the battle as the skirmishers charged against the enemy archers. Not very lordly combat if you ask me.
- Now, the brigands achieved their purpose of course, they inflicted massive damage on the enemies massed infantry force, and then scattered around before taking too much casualties themselves.
- Meanwhile, the 500+ Sturgian infantry traded roughly 1 to 1 against the ~250 or so Imperial infantry. Surely the odds should've been much more heavily in the Sturgian favour, seeing as the Sturgian infantry was both double in number and is supposed to be the Sturgians main strength. Having the Sturgian lords fighting in the infantry aswell as the Druzhinniks being part of the infantry as opposed to a meagre cavalry force would've not changed this too much, but atleast helped it push more in Sturgian favour.
This is why I keep making the suggestions that I do regarding a number of potential changes to Sturgian Druzhinniks and Lords, and potentially adding melee cavalry as being another alternative.
druzhinniks should get the bow instead of a lance, also shield and 1h weapon. Theres enough lancers anyway. When Lords have bows too, this shows an indication that they had bows but someone might have cried they were op, changed their gear but not skills or so it seems.
Druzhina after all IS retinue. Not retinue as in 20 people.
Druzhina after all IS retinue. Not retinue as in 20 people.
pras
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What you guys are describing is an AI problem. Commanders of any army, while OK to be Hannibal and fight among the ranks or act as Alexander and lead their cavalry should definitely not throw themselves solo into the enemy. I don't see how having more cav would help this situation. Especially the kind you are proposing/they actually are. If missile cav is not a mainstay of the Sturgian army (which it shouldn't be) it just means that nobles followed by missle cav/ligh cav runs in and gets mowed down by archers/crossbowmen or get countered by superior cav that pretty much all other factions have.
Which is fine I guess but then we can't expect that they will be 3/4 of the army troop which was the case in some actual Rus battles. Really if we wanted to be true to the lore, every top tier unit should be called družina of some sort.
So basically here we have the case of loose interpretation of names.
In general I'm arguing that the troop tree is OK as it is design wise (apart from the Nord berserker which could be a seperate tree). What Sturgia needs is balancing of existing situation, rearming and recloting of some units and that is about it. The biggest problem of the Sturgia is that the AI is doing a disfavour to it on strategic and tactical level. AI needs an overall improvement anyway, the ting is that Sturgia perhaps suffers from it the most because of their specific territory shape.
Well in Bannerlord we have a problem that družina inspired troops are considered some sort of hardcore elite with low availability and not basically knyaz's goons that were the kind of only real professional soldiers knyaz had. Apart from Varingians that were basically just mercenaries.
Which is fine I guess but then we can't expect that they will be 3/4 of the army troop which was the case in some actual Rus battles. Really if we wanted to be true to the lore, every top tier unit should be called družina of some sort.
So basically here we have the case of loose interpretation of names.
In general I'm arguing that the troop tree is OK as it is design wise (apart from the Nord berserker which could be a seperate tree). What Sturgia needs is balancing of existing situation, rearming and recloting of some units and that is about it. The biggest problem of the Sturgia is that the AI is doing a disfavour to it on strategic and tactical level. AI needs an overall improvement anyway, the ting is that Sturgia perhaps suffers from it the most because of their specific territory shape.
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