Storing loaded muskets

[Plazek]

So what with the 2e mess just yesterday it brings to light what would most likely be considered by many as a questionable tactic. However as far as I am aware it is in now way covered by the rules and while I am not sure I am against it exactly I feel many would feel it is nothing more than a loophole to double gunning.

This tactic is keeping a spare loaded musket at your feet, thereby allowing you to fire your gun, drop it, pick up another and fire again. Technically doing this you are never holding more than one gun, so technically it is within the rules. Is it against the spirit of the linebattle to do this, should rules be formed to combat it, should it be permitted? Either way a ruling ought be given.

Another side issue brought up is picking up a bayonet equipped gun to replace your own bayonet free musket/rifle. Some suggested you ought only use the equipment your class starts with. For the record I think looting should be permitted. Again there is no rule concerning this and if it is going to cause disagreement there should be a ruling on this as well.

 

[Deofuta]

I would imagine that most would see it as doublegunning in everything but actually holding 2 guns. I am going to go with the idea that it is absolutely not allowed in a line battle, or perhaps even in the regular games on the official server. Of course, this is just my thoughts, so your mileage may vary.

 

[Temuzu]

I dont see what the problem is. Completedly realistic, hard to perfom, doubles the reloading time.

 

[Plazek]

Indeed.

However arguably (and as far as I am aware) the whole reason behind the no double gunning rule is two pronged:

1: It is not realistic to be able to carry two back slung weapons at a time.
2: It is not fair to be able to shoot and then with your opponent thinking your bullet is spent you pull out another and shoot him.

---

However despite that the rule has in effect changed and instead of enforcing it within the spirit of those principles people regretably now exercise this rule on the letter of it ie. the literal interpretation of the words that make that rule. For example admins slaying some poor guy who has a pistol and little sword that picked up a bayonet to fight some cavalry.

Under the letter of the rule there is nothing wrong with the above example I outlined in my OP. As the letter of the rule is what is currently exercised then by current adminning standards it (the above example in the OP) should be permitted. Nor would it be against the spirit of the rule IMO.


----

Temuzu that is my thinking. If that is what is agreed though it still needs to be decreed due to its questionable nature.

 

[Royal_Marine_Machine]

Well, for a start lets have a look at the Pros & Cons of this tactic:
Pros:
You get an extra shot.

Cons:
You can't really move from your location (picking up both weapons isn't allowed)
It can be fiddly to pick up the second Musket so you could sometimes be better off just reloading
Unless lots of people crash you're going to find it difficult to get the extra muskets in the first place.
You won't have any ammunition after you fire & drop the second musket


Tbh the cons of this tactic outweigh the Pros - if you're unit is good enough they shouldn't need an extra shot anyway.

I think that it's a fairly acceptable tactic if you're for example, defending a position against outnumbering enemies, to fire your musket then pick up a dead mans musket hoping that it's loaded (when you drop your musket you lose your cartridges!) and fire that - but in most cases it's just silly to throw away your ammunition.

Doesn't need a ruling - it's been addressed by the game.

 

[Plazek]

It does, or people are going to call doublegunning on people due to the similarity.
Unless you want people having fun and interesting discussions about this sort of crap during the linebattle (when IMO we have better things to do) it is best to tie up all these loose ends.

Not that your argument is even valid. Running around on your own is pretty dumb when everyone else is in groups of 12-20+, you might get some sneaky kills somehow but the odds are that you will get spotted and murdered. In other words the cons outweight the pros and it is adressed by the game cause 9 times out of 10 your gonna get destroyed. There are still rules against rambos though. Even though by your so called logic such rules are unnecessary.

 

[Deofuta]

Should its difficulty merit its use or allowance? Wouldn't a problem arise if one simply allowed it due to its apparent inability to affectingly use in a line battle, and then have a regiment discover a method that allows it with both ease and regular use?

 

[Plazek]

I think it should.
After all the difficulty balances the merits of such action, thereby balancing it.

Especially considering how you cannot take them with you as Herb pointed out. Though I might add it is actually possible to pick up your cartridges from the ground.

Though I would say if as you suggest someone did somehow figure out some extremely easy method by which to do this it would need to be reconsidered, if originally permitted. Though I do not see how it would be possible to make easier.

 

[lord_olafson]

I would say all regiments are allowed to pick up swords, lances, flags. But they are not allowed to pick up any firearm, even if they drop their old firearm. Its really simple and easy to follow. Skirmishers have to deal with it, they already have better accuarcy and are allowed to form up spread out formations. Its just fair if they suck in melee. Also they dont have to suck in melee, they just need to train with their small swords or pick up lances, spontoons or swords.

 

[Plazek]

So dehorsed cavalry that joins the line must stand there with their swords?

Artillery that have lost their cannon must make do with their ramrods and lighters?

A drummer boy being attacked by cavalry must use his mini knife instead of picking up the bayonet by his feet dropped by his fallen comrades?

Is this ideal?

 

[lord_olafson]

Well it is not, but i think we can deal with it.

Or we make a rule that all units which spawned with a firearm are not allowed to pick up a second firearm, even if the droped their old one. This rule is very easy to follow.

 

[Royal_Marine_Machine]

Not that your argument is even valid. Running around on your own is pretty dumb when everyone else is in groups of 12-20+, you might get some sneaky kills somehow but the odds are that you will get spotted and murdered. In other words the cons outweight the pros and it is adressed by the game cause 9 times out of 10 your gonna get destroyed. There are still rules against rambos though. Even though by your so called logic such rules are unnecessary.

Wow! Seriously? Straight into trolling?

There are no rules against jumping up & down ontop of a hill are there? No, because the game makes it so taht when you jump you can't do anything for a few seconds.

What you are describing simply does not work - you fire your first shot, drop the musket - and lose all your ammo. You can't transport the two muskets around without double gunning, which means you can only do it where you find the musket, and then you only get 2 shots, granted one after the other - but still only two. So where's the problem? The game has dealt with this work around of Double Gunning - so it's not needed. There is no possible way around it - once you drop your musket you lose all your ammo, that's part of the game. Pretty valid Argument.... more valid than you not thinking.

 

[A_Dane]

Not that your argument is even valid. Running around on your own is pretty dumb when everyone else is in groups of 12-20+, you might get some sneaky kills somehow but the odds are that you will get spotted and murdered. In other words the cons outweight the pros and it is adressed by the game cause 9 times out of 10 your gonna get destroyed. There are still rules against rambos though. Even though by your so called logic such rules are unnecessary.

Wow! Seriously? Straight into trolling?

There are no rules against jumping up & down ontop of a hill are there? No, because the game makes it so taht when you jump you can't do anything for a few seconds.

What you are describing simply does not work - you fire your first shot, drop the musket - and lose all your ammo. You can't transport the two muskets around without double gunning, which means you can only do it where you find the musket, and then you only get 2 shots, granted one after the other - but still only two. So where's the problem? The game has dealt with this work around of Double Gunning - so it's not needed. There is no possible way around it - once you drop your musket you lose all your ammo, that's part of the game. Pretty valid Argument.... more valid than you not thinking.

In line battles it's pretty easy to find ammunition later in the game though, especially if you pick up the muskets from a dead regiment...

Not saying that Plazeks outlined situation is gonna happen every time, but I've been in more than one situation where us rifles could have pulled it off quite easily, simply because an entire regiment had been shot to pieces...

 

[Plazek]

Not that your argument is even valid. Running around on your own is pretty dumb when everyone else is in groups of 12-20+, you might get some sneaky kills somehow but the odds are that you will get spotted and murdered. In other words the cons outweight the pros and it is adressed by the game cause 9 times out of 10 your gonna get destroyed. There are still rules against rambos though. Even though by your so called logic such rules are unnecessary.

Wow! Seriously? Straight into trolling?

There are no rules against jumping up & down ontop of a hill are there? No, because the game makes it so taht when you jump you can't do anything for a few seconds.

What you are describing simply does not work - you fire your first shot, drop the musket - and lose all your ammo. You can't transport the two muskets around without double gunning, which means you can only do it where you find the musket, and then you only get 2 shots, granted one after the other - but still only two. So where's the problem? The game has dealt with this work around of Double Gunning - so it's not needed. There is no possible way around it - once you drop your musket you lose all your ammo, that's part of the game. Pretty valid Argument.... more valid than you not thinking.

I am trolling because you are unaware of the basic game mechanic of being able to pick up ammo?
How about before contributing to topics you apparently know very little about you do a little research. Then you would know it is in fact possible as you can in fact pick up dropped ammo.

Your premise is wrong, your argument fails, you fail by extension. No troll there, just facts.

 

[Royal_Marine_Machine]

Your premise is wrong, your argument fails, you fail by extension. No troll there, just facts.

In no way?

Wait, sorry, i forgot that Ammo just MAGICALLY spawned where you wanted it too - not just where people have died... sorry...

You'll need new ammo for every shot - not going to happen is it. Fool.

That's the way though isn't it? Can't think for long enough to understand a point so just say "Well you're wrong" great job. Good bye.

 

[Plazek]

If you drop your musket the cartridges drop right next to it.

You fire your musket one shot you drop your musket and pick up a loaded one, you can fire it two shots, drop it, then pick up your old musket and the cartridges. You can then load your musket, drop it, pick up the other one, pick up the cartridges load the musket, fire it three shots, drop the musket pick up the other, fire it four thats four shots!

*Please imagine the bold text in the voice of the vampire from sesame street and it may make counting the number of shots easier.

I hope you can now see that it is in fact possible to get more than two shots and that therefore your reasoning behind why it is a pointless thing to do as you can get only two shots is invalid.
If you do not understand this then I am afraid I cannot actually make it any easier unless I can perhaps get the count on contract but I am not sure if he is available at such short notice

Learn basic warband mechanics or GTFO.

 

[WilsonMG]

All the bitterness aside.  I just don't think it would work logistically as Herbiie pointed out.  You can't at any time carry two (or more) firearms without violating the rule, so unless you happened upon a spare firearm and made that your spot to keep swapping out weapons, you wouldn't pull it off without violating the rules.

The MilitaryGamersdotcom_US (North American) Server has no double-gunning as a 24/7 rule on the server, not just during line battles.

 

[A_Dane]

Wilson, it's the same on the 22nd server.

However, In linebattles I've seen it be entirely doable several times, if not for a full 20 man regiment, then atleast for quite a good bunch of it. It's not overly effective, but it can be devastating if you're on top of a hill where another regiment was just slaughtered...

 

[Laisha]

If you drop your musket the cartridges drop right next to it.

You fire your musket one shot you drop your musket and pick up a loaded one, you can fire it two shots, drop it, then pick up your old musket and the cartridges. You can then load your musket, drop it, pick up the other one, pick up the cartridges load the musket, fire it three shots, drop the musket pick up the other, fire it four thats four shots!

*Please imagine the bold text in the voice of the vampire from sesame street and it may make counting the number of shots easier.

I hope you can now see that it is in fact possible to get more than two shots and that therefore your reasoning behind why it is a pointless thing to do as you can get only two shots is invalid.
If you do not understand this then I am afraid I cannot actually make it any easier unless I can perhaps get the count on contract but I am not sure if he is available at such short notice

Learn basic warband mechanics or GTFO.

That process sounds both slow and useless because it requires reloading.  That isn't four rapid shots, it's two double shots after a long break in between.  Good for a surprise, but not much else if someone is rushing you with their bayonet or most other situations. 

Double-gunning is not realistic, period.  It's not the same as dropping your own empty musket, picking up a loaded one from your dead friend and firing it.  And even then, you risk picking up an empty weapon and then you're kind of SOL because you have to pick up your cartridges and reload when you could have spent the precious seconds reloading your original musket.

 

[Deofuta]

If a line group were to come upon a previous battleground of men who had been killed, it is entirely possible for there to be loaded, unfired muskets to be picked up. Many a time have I seen people go down before a shot is fired, and if a group were to come upon these, are they allowed to sue them? The situation appears to be rare enough to allow it. (Huh, my outlook has changed substantially as the day goes on, odd)

On a side note, come on gentlemen. There is no 'trolling' going on here. I request that you please be respectful of each others views and concerns.

(Of course, I am not the thread starter, so it is merely a request)