stop this unrealism

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zerck

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Blunt weapons DOES kill. but you can't kill a man with a mace in this game. instead of this there must be a percentage chance to make units go unconcious when you hit them with blunt weapons. and it must be only when you hit head. not leg or torso.
you have mace in you hand attack a swadian millitias leg and he goes unconcious! this is ridiculous.
 
You're right, I'd add that sharp weapons can stun too under certain circumstances.

it must be only when you hit head. not leg or torso.
It's possible to kill by hitting torso with a blunt weapon. Ex: liver can be damaged, ribbs can be crushed so sharp fragments of bone can pierce lungs etc.
 
Manitas said:
it must be only when you hit head. not leg or torso.
It's possible to kill by hitting torso with a blunt weapon. Ex: liver can be damaged, ribbs can be crushed so sharp fragments of bone can pierce lungs etc.
i mean making unconcious. blunt weapons must only make units go unconcious when hit head.
 
Interesting.

While I realize that blunt damage would kill, I would like to point out that this is a game.

Gameplay > realism.

There could be different systems set up to control the knockout effect, but I don't see why they would be needed. Imagine trying to capture a particular enemy and you hit him with your club and the hit kills him rather than knocks him out. Failed mission. And the reason why?

I personally like the simple and easy layout that blunt damage has in the scheme of things, and would really rather not see it change. Striving for complete and total reailsm is a valiant goal, but an unworthy one in my opinion.

I would also like to add that making posts such as yours, where you use the word 'must' in regards to changes to the game, imply that you are demanding. Maybe you just worded it wrong and you were not demanding anything ... but it does give that impression.

Narcissus
 
What I would like to see is that if the dude is wearing plate armor, there should be a chance you'll knock him out even with cutting weapons. Seems realistic enough to me that an axe could hit a man with a helm without cutting thru the hard iron, but giving him an awful concussion.
 
Nice idea, sounds good. But, it would definitely require changes here and there. That "capture the nobleman quest" would kinda suck if you had a % chance to kill him instead of knock him unconscious.
 
That's it. I'm going on a quest of searching a witch that knows a way to keep these realism-dorks out of these forums.

Seriously, go troll in some flightsim forum. This is a game. Games are supposed to be entertaining and fun to play. When you watch some brainless 80's homoerotic action movie(Commando), are you constantly *****ing about that this isn't realistic? One can only speculate how horrible it would be to play some NES mario game with one of these people.

zerck said:
reworking the blunt damage does not make the game less playable.

Oh really? Then please tell us your no doubt ingenious idea of how those capture missions should be made, without being scared that you kill the bastard you are supposed to capture.
 
Narcissus said:
Gameplay > realism.
Oh dear... my struggle to debunk this conventional wisdom has been in vain, as the respected forum moderator states it for the second time already.

Narcissus, I understand and respect your point about the damage system, you explicitly stated it's your personal view.
But by stating the opinion i quoted above, you suggest that the one good for all Gameplay exists, and it's somehow related to attempts to design games with realism in mind. You yourself proved that's wrong by disagreeing with the Zerck's point.

the opposite gameplay < Realism is also false.

the only true relation here is:

gameplay != realism

As a moderator your oppinions sound louder than others. I can only ask you, that if what I am saying makes any sense to you, please consider not stating this folks wisdom. All gaming forums are full of it.
 
and it's the realism makes this kind of games different from mario.
i can play mario if want to play unrealistic.
anyway if you are so intmidated of my suggestion. i don't care.
 
zerck said:
and it's the realism makes this kind of games different from mario.
i can play mario if want to play unrealistic.
anyway if you are so intmidated of my suggestion. i don't care.

As everyone should know without me saying it out loud, apparent realism is a necessity for this game, but this kind of *****ing about punctilious, trivial details with such a severe demand "STOP THIS UNREALISM" is just lame.

Edit: ...and I'm still waiting for your suggestion on how capturing people without the risk of killing them should be made?
 
Maybe a good middle ground would be to have certain blunt weapons with higher stun-kill ratio (joust lances/clubs/stones), and others with a higher kill-stun ratio (maces/mauls/pole hammers). Or possibly even a specialist weapon that only stuns, like a sap (craptacular reach anyone?). That would solve the problem of having to stun enemies that are connected to a prisoner mission.
 
out of

Narcissus said:
Gameplay > realism.

and

Manitas said:
gameplay != realism

i have to admit i agree with Narc on this one. The game would get so frustrating. Just imagion, you have trekked half way across Caldria to capture a Nobleman. Your fighting his army and just due to pure luck you spot him circling out to ready himself for his next charge so you decide to follow him. Eventually you catch up draw your mace and think this is it he's mine, to find out when you hit him because of that even tiny % of chance you kill him... I wouldn't be able to stand it, it would be so frustating. Then you end up getting angry and if your playing at 3am (like i usually do) you'll get in a bad mood and probably not want to play again for awhile...

Anyway thats just my opinion :smile:

.:EDIT:. A few edits trying to sort of quotes :razz: and sorry for any typo's, as okiN says I'm English but i dont speak it :wink:
 
@ Nahkuri ... Relax a bit and think before you post. I realize that you are frustrated but comments like "realism-dorks" are totally uncalled for. If you can't make a constructive post without adding inappropriate remarks ... then just skip that thread without posting.

@ Manitas ... I won't argue semantics (because that is what the difference is and I think you know it) about gameplay versus realism. I used the statement as a generalization that good gameplay is the most important factor of a game, in my opinion. I did not mean to imply that realism < all.

Narcissus
 
Total realism would never be achieved in any game.
However M&B is striving for a somewhat realistic gameplay. Having said that, I believe that whereas a certain level of realism should be present in any game, (more / less in some respectively) there is a sort of a 'rounding off' point of every little minor thing.

In current situation, I believe the creators attempted to have a specific use for 'blunt, piercing and slashing' items. Blunt, in this case, would knock somebody uncontious. Although it is true, blunt weapons CAN be very fatal, there is a much higher chance they would rather knock somebody out rather than kill. So it was a simple 'round off' to separate blunt weapons from the slashing and piercing weapons. (I think so at least)

Having a blunt weapon have a chance of killing an enemy, would not achieve any end result, other than a more variable chance of whether your foes perish or are held captive. Ultimately, if slashing weapons and such could knock out, and blunt weapons could kill, the difference between blunt and others would be nullified, thus actually reducing the gameplay variety. It would not enhance combat, improve gameplay, make the game more challenging, or provide any other benefit, and even realism is arguable at this point since the game is still realistic in terms of 'blunt would knock out somebody better than a slashing weapon'.

Zerck no offence, but your posts pissed a lot of people off, and if you DO want to achieve a certain point of realism in the game, you have succesfully done the opposite since people would be arguing against it in this thread thus slowing down the flow of useful suggestions. And I personally don't see why you are bothered by such a small and insignificant 'unrealistic' fact, whereas there are much more major ones which exist in the game. Perhaps you were suggesting on another way of capturing prisoners, without the need to fight but mis-placed your words?
 
Narcissus said:
I won't argue semantics (because that is what the difference is and I think you know it) about gameplay versus realism. I used the statement as a generalization that good gameplay is the most important factor of a game, in my opinion. I did not mean to imply that realism < all.
Semantics aside.
What bothered me most was just that generalisation.
Gameplay is subjective, realism is objective (although people's beliefs on what's realistic are not) so these two are uncomparable. The relation exists only in their heads. If you generalize that, then it's like you trying to speak for everyone.

About that 'capture the nobleman' example. You still got a chance to get him killed, if any of your soldiers attacks him with a sharp weapon.

And since when games have to grant you 100% chance of success? Where's the 'game' then? They tend to turn into something like sequential feature presentation, play once - get next.
 
Erm, I doubt any of you have thought of this, but you can PUNCH a man in the head and knock him out, even kill him. If you hit someone in the head with a MACE, he is either dead, seriously brain damaged or very very lucky to be alive.

I don't think any of you actually grasp how heavy a mace actually is, and a spiked mace hitting someone in the head if they have no helm to speak of is almost certainly going to kill him. perhaps a staff would be a better weapon, and I have an oak staff that could most certainly kill a man if it hit him in the head. The only chance of this not happeneing is if it is a glancing blow, which might knock someone out, but this is still a very low chance.

Think about these things before posting. If you are looking for realism, don't ***** about not killing people with swords. On the battlefield you could get a small cut on your finger which doesn't bother yiou but by the end of the battle you could be unable to fight ever again because it has been infected or somethign, and you have to have your finger chopped off. Medieval times was not the greatest of times for healt you know.
 
Manitas said:
About that 'capture the nobleman' example. You still got a chance to get him killed, if any of your soldiers attacks him with a sharp weapon.

And since when games have to grant you 100% chance of success? Where's the 'game' then? They tend to turn into something like sequential feature presentation, play once - get next.
That actually part of point of why blunt weapons should stay within the non-lethal group.
Your own buddies tend to kill that Nobleman often enough already, no point in making the quest that much harder. It is by far the most hated quest for me. I have been lucky twice now and managed to lance the Nobleman with my Jousting Lance when he happened to get outside the melee, but that was pure luck. Imagine the 'grrrr' I would feel if I had killed him. Not only did I lose too many of the my best troops but then I even killed the entire reason for the fight. Great.
 
Once again, when morale is added, the noblemen of Calradia should gain their senses and surrender once their bodyguards are slaughtered. After that the blunt damage always knocking the enemy out could be rethinked if thought necessary.

It seems that just about every problem with the current game could be fixed by adding morale and stamina. Hopefully Armagan will start working on them soon.
 
Kelpo said:
It seems that just about every problem with the current game could be fixed by adding morale and stamina. Hopefully Armagan will start working on them soon.
Heh, clearly that's an exaggeration. But yeah, they'd be useful to resolve many issues, including the "random loot because we'd get too rich too soon" problem.

Back on that nobleguy, we could give that poor sob a hint like the following check performed by him at random intervals during the battle so he could decide when to give up:

my_initial_num/my_losses - their_init_num/their_losses.

Negative numbers indicate high probability of losing the battle.
If subsequent check gives a smaller number than previous - he's in some real deep ****.
 
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