Statement Regarding Plans For MP Vol.5

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flashn00b

Veteran
So uhh, when did archer spam become gamebreakingly overpowered again? Cuz I've noticed a recent increase in archer spam and I'm starting to get 1.5.6 flashbacks.

Actually, I am starting to think that TaleWorlds has a very specific vision in mind for multiplayer that includes very skewed faction balance that heavily favours Vlandia while the meat of the game is "modern military FPS with a medieval coat of paint". Should I just go back to playing on NeoGK's Warband servers? I know archers are OP in that game but it's apparent to me that WB players have a sense of honor, while Bannerlord players need to be FORCED into picking an evenly balanced team composition through balance patches
 
Archers AI should be fixed and made much stronger, higher fire rate and accuracy. Also their movement speed is ridicules slow compared to all other classes. What's the point of picking archers if all other classes can run them down with ease while AI is super confused? About archer movement speed. Why can't they have same movement speed as inf when they are in melee mode at least? There is no reason to give them snail speed. One argument is that they never will get caught and can run forever then, but that's bs. Slower inf can catch them, and while you make archers run they don't make any damage either, 1 group counters another out on the battlefield, so I don't understand the argument at all. I mean shock troops got super fast sprinting speed, and you don't see them being chased forever around on the battlefield either. Players that have a problem and is getting frustrated with archers being strong, got no clue about being archers, they just want them to suffer. And not 1 single team in tournaments EVER pick archers because of the issues I just pointed out.
 
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Cek

Squire
Archers AI should be fixed and made much stronger, higher fire rate and accuracy. Also their movement speed is ridicules slow compared to all other classes. What's the point of picking archers if all other classes can run them down with ease while AI is super confused? About archer movement speed. Why can't they have same movement speed as inf when they are in melee mode at least? There is no reason to give them snail speed. One argument is that they never will get caught and can run forever then, but that's bs. Slower inf can catch them, and while you make archers run they don't make any damage either, 1 group counters another out on the battlefield, so I don't understand the argument at all.
You will just make archer OP if you increase fire rate and accuracy anymore, people will just play archer outisde cavarly making infantry useless.
I think right now archer are in a good spot, i can agree with you that light archer (only them) could have the same speed as infatry so they can still run away but not outrun them

I mean shock troops got super fast sprinting speed, and you don't see them being chased forever around on the battlefield either.
If you play some meta tactics with 3 cav 3 shock infantry, you will see them running around a lot and you can't catch them while your men get killed by cav.
In random games they have no reason to run away, because they don't have ranged weapon like archer do, if you make archer be able to outrune every infatry with just 3 archer you could beat any other infantry combinations as you can run - shoot - run and they will be never catch you

Players that have a problem and is getting frustrated with archers being strong, got no clue about being archers, they just want them to suffer. And not 1 single team in tournaments EVER pick archers because of the issues I just pointed out.
People didn't take archer in tournaments not because they think they are weak or slow, but just because one single cavalry capatin can delete an archer unit in few second expecially with 2 hand weapon like glaive or bastard axe

Until a captain can move alone without risk to kill enemy units archers will be always in a bad spot. Yes, i can kill that rambo cav player coming to me but in the meantime he already kill 5 of my men
 
You will just make archer OP if you increase fire rate and accuracy anymore, people will just play archer outisde cavarly making infantry useless.
I think right now archer are in a good spot, i can agree with you that light archer (only them) could have the same speed as infatry so they can still run away but not outrun them


If you play some meta tactics with 3 cav 3 shock infantry, you will see them running around a lot and you can't catch them while your men get killed by cav.
In random games they have no reason to run away, because they don't have ranged weapon like archer do, if you make archer be able to outrune every infatry with just 3 archer you could beat any other infantry combinations as you can run - shoot - run and they will be never catch you


People didn't take archer in tournaments not because they think they are weak or slow, but just because one single cavalry capatin can delete an archer unit in few second expecially with 2 hand weapon like glaive or bastard axe

Until a captain can move alone without risk to kill enemy units archers will be always in a bad spot. Yes, i can kill that rambo cav player coming to me but in the meantime he already kill 5 of my men
Archers are not even close to be at a good spot right now. They are far far away from being there. The AI is way too passive, and engages targets all over the place, behind them from the side or they just stand there looking like they are overwhelmed. They need a very narrow field view and they don't have that now. You said it yourself, no one pick archers in tournament because 1 cav can kill them alone. Because of what I just said. So you are actually agreeing with me without realizing it. With a narrow line of fire, higher fire rate and better accuracy you can get that single cav before he gets you, IF you have skill. 18 archers vs 1 cav, archers should be able to OWN that single cav. Like they did before 1.5.0. If archers don't get picked in tournaments it is because there is something wrong with the archers, and NOT the cav. The cav is in a good place, archers are NOT! I refuse to listen to players that got some idea that inf should protect archers from enemy inf and cav, it's such a stupid tactic. Archers should be able to take care of them self. If cav want to attack those archers, the cav need to use all his troops, what I am trying to tell you is that this will make rambo tactics obsolete.

If inf and 2h want to get the archers, they need the support of cav, and cav has to use full cav attacks. The 2h needs to be in formation with his team behind shields and not run alone with mach 3 and kill the archers in seconds all alone with no casualties.

Movement speed : If archers are getting attacked with that formation of inf and 2h I just explained, even with no cav to support the enemy, then archers will have to hold fire and run. The second archers hold fire they are not making any damage. Then they have 0 fire rate and 0 accuracy. And If the archers want to escape the attack, they will have to hold fire pretty soon and run like hell. There are different ways to deal with this situation for the inf and 2h. Cav can attack archers with full force, and keep them from running, while the rest of the team engages in melee fight. Or cav can attack with full force and the formation of inf and 2h will catch them with ease. You can also split up, 1 group of inf can go for the running archers and keep them running, while the rest deals with the melee fight. The counters to strong archers are vast, if you are not being lazy.

Inf vs archers : If inf is faster than archers, there is no point of being either class. Is boring af to be inf and catch archers with no fight. And being archers, the second inf comes for you it's over, you can run all you want, they will get you with not 1 single unit lost. This is a tactical game, and there is no tactic in that. The maps are not infinite, and lets say archers in melee mode would have same speed as inf, then they would never be able to do what you fear. That they can build distance and start making damage on inc inf. and keep doing it. And even if archers were faster than inf, like back before 1.5.0, inf would still be able to catch them, IF you have skill. Use the terrain, and shieldwall when they stop to make damage.

Archers are the key to unlocking captain mode. We are in this situation today because archers were nerfed to hell. 1.5.0 removed archers from the equation, and rambo tactics and inf metas was born and made this mode so damn boring.
 

Cek

Squire
Archers are not even close to be at a good spot right now. They are far far away from being there. The AI is way too passive, and engages targets all over the place, behind them from the side or they just stand there looking like they are overwhelmed.
I said they are in a good place in term of fire rate and accuracy, having more command to better manage the AI will help for sure
They need a very narrow field view and they don't have that now. You said it yourself, no one pick archers in tournament because 1 cav can kill them alone. Because of what I just said. So you are actually agreeing with me without realizing it. With a narrow line of fire, higher fire rate and better accuracy you can get that single cav before he gets you, IF you have skill. 18 archers vs 1 cav, archers should be able to OWN that single cav. Like they did before 1.5.0. If archers don't get picked in tournaments it is because there is something wrong with the archers, and NOT the cav. The cav is in a good place, archers are NOT! I refuse to listen to players that got some idea that inf should protect archers from enemy inf and cav, it's such a stupid tactic. Archers should be able to take care of them self.
You keep bring out 1.5.0 patch like before it everything was alright for archers, but meta before that was 5 shock troop and 1 shield unit (still no archer anywhere, very few used archers) and they had the same AI problems, second my one cav argument is valid because they could shoot one hit kill arrows but the moment they are not shooting the cav (who charge archers in front anyway?) could go alone near them forcing them in melee and kill them with the absurd swing speed of some weapon (if they not kill each other first).
No class should be able to take care of them by itself, otherwise why playing a team and not just 1v1? If like you said their weakness is cavalry charging them, so they need infantry to support them to bring out their full potential

If cav want to attack those archers, the cav need to use all his troops, what I am trying to tell you is that this will make rambo tactics obsolete.
Rambo is used because is the best risk-reward method against any type of troops with most class, it was always there with every class in some way, with cav is just more evident, until there is some sort of way to force to bring your troop with you rambo tactics will keep being used.

If inf and 2h want to get the archers, they need the support of cav, and cav has to use full cav attacks. The 2h needs to be in formation with his team behind shields and not run alone with mach 3 and kill the archers in seconds all alone with no casualties.

Movement speed : If archers are getting attacked with that formation of inf and 2h I just explained, even with no cav to support the enemy, then archers will have to hold fire and run. The second archers hold fire they are not making any damage. Then they have 0 fire rate and 0 accuracy. And If the archers want to escape the attack, they will have to hold fire pretty soon and run like hell. There are different ways to deal with this situation for the inf and 2h. Cav can attack archers with full force, and keep them from running, while the rest of the team engages in melee fight. Or cav can attack with full force and the formation of inf and 2h will catch them with ease. You can also split up, 1 group of inf can go for the running archers and keep them running, while the rest deals with the melee fight. The counters to strong archers are vast, if you are not being lazy.
You are making example expecting that there is only 1 archer, or in case of multiple they will gather up instead of spreading out and crossfire, try to against more than 2 archer squad if they had better fire rate and accuracy than now, they will kill your whole team before you reach them, making shock troop useless as you need to take more shield or cav to counter that

Inf vs archers : If inf is faster than archers, there is no point of being either class. Is boring af to be inf and catch archers with no fight. And being archers, the second inf comes for you it's over, you can run all you want, they will get you with not 1 single unit lost. This is a tactical game, and there is no tactic in that. The maps are not infinite, and lets say archers in melee mode would have same speed as inf, then they would never be able to do what you fear. That they can build distance and start making damage on inc inf. and keep doing it. And even if archers were faster than inf, like back before 1.5.0, inf would still be able to catch them, IF you have skill. Use the terrain, and shieldwall when they stop to make damage.

Archers are the key to unlocking captain mode. We are in this situation today because archers were nerfed to hell. 1.5.0 removed archers from the equation, and rambo tactics and inf metas was born and made this mode so damn boring.
The key to unlock captain mode is to have better control on your AI (like be able to focus fire, select which weapon to use and so on...), and prevent excessive solo actions for the captain, so you actually need to keep together, and not "i will go alone to the enemy standing there, maybe i can kill some bots before i die".

We can problaly stay here all the day arguing but i don't see us reach any sort of agreement as i see we have completly different ideas on how this mode could be better.
 
I said they are in a good place in term of fire rate and accuracy, having more command to better manage the AI will help for sure

You keep bring out 1.5.0 patch like before it everything was alright for archers, but meta before that was 5 shock troop and 1 shield unit (still no archer anywhere, very few used archers) and they had the same AI problems, second my one cav argument is valid because they could shoot one hit kill arrows but the moment they are not shooting the cav (who charge archers in front anyway?) could go alone near them forcing them in melee and kill them with the absurd swing speed of some weapon (if they not kill each other first).
No class should be able to take care of them by itself, otherwise why playing a team and not just 1v1? If like you said their weakness is cavalry charging them, so they need infantry to support them to bring out their full potential


Rambo is used because is the best risk-reward method against any type of troops with most class, it was always there with every class in some way, with cav is just more evident, until there is some sort of way to force to bring your troop with you rambo tactics will keep being used.


You are making example expecting that there is only 1 archer, or in case of multiple they will gather up instead of spreading out and crossfire, try to against more than 2 archer squad if they had better fire rate and accuracy than now, they will kill your whole team before you reach them, making shock troop useless as you need to take more shield or cav to counter that


The key to unlock captain mode is to have better control on your AI (like be able to focus fire, select which weapon to use and so on...), and prevent excessive solo actions for the captain, so you actually need to keep together, and not "i will go alone to the enemy standing there, maybe i can kill some bots before i die".

We can problaly stay here all the day arguing but i don't see us reach any sort of agreement as i see we have completly different ideas on how this mode could be better.
Your ideas of "balance" have nothing to do with balance, but with punishments, restrictions and forcing players to not use a playstyle, it's just another word for a massive nerf that will ruin the game mode even more. And Archers don't need any focus command, that will not fix the AI, it's just some idea of Ling's that have gotten momentum because that's all he talks about. I don't even think a command like that can be implemented in this game. And it would be unnecessary if archers just had same target acquisition as before 1.5.0. that worked well and was ok.

Yes, the time before 1.5.0 teams would do massive inf metas, and not any rambo tactics really. But if they did, it could be countered with pre 1.5.0 - Archers - on Druimmor and Jawwali. I know that for a fact. Because we actually did that back then. Not just in pub game also vs clans. But, it's not like it's easy. Takes practice as a team to pull it off. And full cav attacks to help archers was also needed back then. In fact, cav could do rambo but was needed as a support with full stack attacks.

Inf protecting archers, that don't make any damage, is a waste of inf. The same with full cav attacks. You can't encourage any cav players after 1.5.0 to go all in to save 18 super slow archers from sure death, because 18 archers are simply not worth losing 2-3 cav on, especially not after spears got buffed. And they can't even escape the charging enemy if they would help you. You can just ignore the enemy cav, push through and kill them anyway. In your example where inf is protection archers its the same. Not worth it, they don't make any damage anyway. That's why rambo is so used today. Pre 1.5.0, you could simply not go 1 unit alone vs 18 archers and hope to get any kills, you would die.

In my examples there is only 1 group of archers. If there is 2 groups of archers you need a very good cav player or simply 2 cav groups. And ofc archers should be able to NOT get exploited by all other unit classes. They should be able to work on their own, like cav can, like inf can, 2h can.

I don't see any point of discussing this with you either. You are part of the noisy minority that want focus fire and restrictions and punishment's, to "get one over" on the stupid cav players. It wont work. It's a waste of the dev's precious time. AI wont be fixed by it. The core problems wont be fixed by it. The mode will become way less enjoyable. It's the most cheapest suggestion to implement, and I hope the dev's will ignore that groups crazy ideas.
 
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Cek

Squire
You are part of the noisy minority that want focus fire and restrictions and punishment's, to "get one over" on the stupid cav players. It wont work. It's a waste of the dev's precious time. AI wont be fixed by it. The core problems wont be fixed by it. The mode will become way less enjoyable. It the most cheapest suggestion to implement, and I hope the dev's will ignore that groups crazy ideas.
Nice to see you that you manage to do a survey to all bannelord MP base and already know what the majority want, all the truth is in your hands, i'm amazed they still have to hire you as project manager at TW
 
Nice to see you that you manage to do a survey to all bannelord MP base and already know what the majority want, all the truth is in your hands, i'm amazed they still have to hire you as project manager at TW
Nope, better let the mode be destroyed by you guys, and the echo chamber at CL discord. And nice to see that you don't really have any counter arguments other than this. You know what they say, if you attack the person in a discussion you have run out of arguments.
 

Cek

Squire
You know what they say, if you attack the person in a discussion you have run out of arguments.
Well, i could present any type of arguments and you will mark them as "vocal minority" and "dangerous for the game" anyway, so i don't see the point on keep presenting them to you.
I let you keep thinking that exploiting the AI (who need a better AI anyway) like going around the enemy shield wall to turn them is a mastermind tactic and without it the game will have no deep tactics, we are in the EA phase (who know for how much), it should be the time for them to experiment new things that could turn "wrong" or maybe "right", the player base could not go any lower than this anyway.

Like i said at the start is just you who know how to "fix" the game and all other are "wrong", so it will be my last message on this thread, maybe TW will listen to you if you keep been vocal :xf-wink:
 
Well, i could present any type of arguments and you will mark them as "vocal minority" and "dangerous for the game" anyway, so i don't see the point on keep presenting them to you.
I let you keep thinking that exploiting the AI (who need a better AI anyway) like going around the enemy shield wall to turn them is a mastermind tactic and without it the game will have no deep tactics, we are in the EA phase (who know for how much), it should be the time for them to experiment new things that could turn "wrong" or maybe "right", the player base could not go any lower than this anyway.

Like i said at the start is just you who know how to "fix" the game and all other are "wrong", so it will be my last message on this thread, maybe TW will listen to you if you keep been vocal :xf-wink:
yup, I know this mode better than most, and way better than you. And good luck with pushing ideas that will turn captain mode into a broken less fun game. Turn the AI around ? lol, maybe you should not just stand there passive with your units waiting for this to happen, and then cry about it when it happens. And instead of adapting your playstyle you call for TW to punish everyone North Korea style, how pathetic is that anyway?? It's not an "exploit" you are just a lazy noob.
 
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cruzader79

Recruit
hi guys, love the game, big time fan, have all the series and even gifted a lot a copies.

DEVS is there a way to Re-Launch the game in NA, I want the siege and tdm servers populated

Invest some money in PR

did everyone returned the game?
 

Danny5

Sergeant at Arms
hi guys, love the game, big time fan, have all the series and even gifted a lot a copies.

DEVS is there a way to Re-Launch the game in NA, I want the siege and tdm servers populated

Invest some money in PR

did everyone returned the game?
Most likely, or people are just waiting for major features, but definitely people are waiting for custom servers
 

KSHMR

Sergeant at Arms
No one's really interested in matchmaking. What will revive the scene is custom servers.
Probably the release of custom servers will bring a lot of players in again and that in turn will lead to an additional amount of players for matchmaking.. But it will be a while before we get any of that
 

flashn00b

Veteran
I think the problem with custom servers is that groups like NeoGK will do a better job at balancing the game's multiplayer than TaleWorlds
 
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