Statement Regarding Plans For MP Vol.3

[AxiosXiphos]

Another thread of debunking bannerlord superior class system theorists

TBH theres no point arguing - i was typing a response but it's just irrelevant. All points on both sides have been made; no ones minds will be changed.

I don't think it matters; you guys do. This state of affairs won't change; you are entitled to make your cases to TW but I don't think it's changing regardless and I don't agree bannerlord won't be a success if other areas are improved.

 

[Sundeki]

The fundamental issues of the Premade Class system can't be defended, or even properly rationalized by those that try. The only relevant thing is whether or not a person cares about those things, and for better and worse, the majority of the playerbase does. If TaleWorlds doesn't see the light at some point, then the only end result is a completely split playerbase, as soon as someone creates a mod that gives players their agency back. All these EU vs. NA arguments(turd flinging contests) will essentially be replicated between Bannerlord's Native proponents, and Bannerlord's Agency Mod(or whatever you want to call it) proponents. Assuming TaleWorlds can make combat enjoyable, of course.

 

[Callum]

I think there are solid arguments to both sides of the debate, to be honest.

Most of Warband's equipment choice was an illusion, but it was something that was in the hands of players, allowing them to make their own decisions. Admittedly, I was always a big fan of just running around with throwing weapons and forgoing armour and a proper melee weapon to do that, and it was a lot of fun in a casual setting. In higher-level play though, most pieces of equipment were ignored, or at least that is my understanding of it.

On the other hand, the class system simply removes most of these non-choices and allows you to just jump in and play on a more level playing field. But at the same time, it does take away some of the fun of mixing and matching gear to suit your own playstyle.

I'm just thinking out loud here, but is it possible that a lot of this frustration actually stems from the lack of visual customisation? Like, being unable to show off your silly character face, or running around shirtless as a statement of your melee prowess, or just to pick what you think looks cool?

 

[Caps]

I think there are solid arguments to both sides of the debate, to be honest.

Most of Warband's equipment choice was an illusion, but it was something that was in the hands of players, allowing them to make their own decisions. Admittedly, I was always a big fan of just running around with throwing weapons and forgoing armour and a proper melee weapon to do that, and it was a lot of fun in a casual setting. In higher-level play though, most pieces of equipment were ignored, or at least that is my understanding of it.

On the other hand, the class system simply removes most of these non-choices and allows you to just jump in and play on a more level playing field. But at the same time, it does take away some of the fun of mixing and matching gear to suit your own playstyle.

I'm just thinking out loud here, but is it possible that a lot of this frustration actually stems from the lack of visual customisation? Like, being unable to show off your silly character face, or running around shirtless as a statement of your melee prowess, or just to pick what you think looks cool?

visual customization is on of the 8 types of fun, obv its only cosmetical they cry over and over again. Cosmetics are a form of expression and progression. The infrastructure is there very questionable why its not implemented.

mp as it is barely fills out any of them

 

[AxiosXiphos]

The fundamental issues of the Premade Class system can't be defended, or even properly rationalized by those that try. The only relevant thing is whether or not a person cares about those things, and for better and worse, the majority of the playerbase does. If TaleWorlds doesn't see the light at some point, then the only end result is a completely split playerbase, as soon as someone creates a mod that gives players their agency back. All these EU vs. NA arguments(turd flinging contests) will essentially be replicated between Bannerlord's Native proponents, and Bannerlord's Agency Mod(or whatever you want to call it) proponents. Assuming TaleWorlds can make combat enjoyable, of course.

I don't think that's fair. I don't want to start an argument but I believe the new classes are more versatile, streamlined, allows players to play the best possible equipment at times regardless of their performance (an impossibility in warband), more intuitive to newer players and more aesthetically appealing. I also think with a skins system it would allow much more player agency in their cosmetics (as in warband your cosmetics were determined by the stats you wanted). This means i the future I don't have to wear that stupid Veagir hat all the time which is always a bonus to me. You have your reasoning, which is valid and I have mine which is also valid.

I think there are solid arguments to both sides of the debate, to be honest.

Most of Warband's equipment choice was an illusion, but it was something that was in the hands of players, allowing them to make their own decisions. Admittedly, I was always a big fan of just running around with throwing weapons and forgoing armour and a proper melee weapon to do that, and it was a lot of fun in a casual setting. In higher-level play though, most pieces of equipment were ignored, or at least that is my understanding of it.

On the other hand, the class system simply removes most of these non-choices and allows you to just jump in and play on a more level playing field. But at the same time, it does take away some of the fun of mixing and matching gear to suit your own playstyle.

I'm just thinking out loud here, but is it possible that a lot of this frustration actually stems from the lack of visual customisation? Like, being unable to show off your silly character face, or running around shirtless as a statement of your melee prowess, or just to pick what you think looks cool?

I agree with this reasoning but I think some people (who do have completely reasonable arguments) will never like the class system regardless.

 

[Callum]

The infrastructure is there very questionable why its not implemented.

It is something that we have said that we would consider and explore at some point, but with it being just a visual thing it is quite low-priority.

 

[Rangah]

I think there are solid arguments to both sides of the debate, to be honest.

Most of Warband's equipment choice was an illusion, but it was something that was in the hands of players, allowing them to make their own decisions. Admittedly, I was always a big fan of just running around with throwing weapons and forgoing armour and a proper melee weapon to do that, and it was a lot of fun in a casual setting. In higher-level play though, most pieces of equipment were ignored, or at least that is my understanding of it.

On the other hand, the class system simply removes most of these non-choices and allows you to just jump in and play on a more level playing field. But at the same time, it does take away some of the fun of mixing and matching gear to suit your own playstyle.

I'm just thinking out loud here, but is it possible that a lot of this frustration actually stems from the lack of visual customisation? Like, being unable to show off your silly character face, or running around shirtless as a statement of your melee prowess, or just to pick what you think looks cool?

For me it was adjusting my gear choice to my current budget, deciding what gear to pick to be most useful, which happened to directly tie into visual customization.

"Should I cheap out on this shield so I can have more gold next round? What if I don't use a helmet and get a better body armour instead? It's risky, but it could give me an edge in melee fights. Okay, our team got smashed this round without getting any kills, I'll spawn with default gear to save gold and have a bigger chance of comeback in the round afterwards. Hm, I could either get the faster sword or throwing axes. Not both, though. I could have had both if I got more kills last round or my team won." and so on.

In Bannerlord such a choice boils down to straight up skipping a life, to spawn more times or with a better class next round, while in Warband you could still play and have impact while saving up.

 

[Sundeki]

I'm just thinking out loud here, but is it possible that a lot of this frustration actually stems from the lack of visual customisation?

My character could run around with a pink dildo hat for all I care, personally. Sometimes I would pick wierd loadouts for the sake of experimentation(spent hundreds of hours doing this), and sometimes purely to make the game harder for myself(and yet still viable in reasonably skilled pub play). I could pick archer, or medium infantry, or cavalry in any mode or map or faction I wanted, without having to slug it out as a useless peasant class, or some other lower tier trash/class type I don't want to play in that moment. I could hyper specialize my loadout in potentially inefficient, or less viable ways, but slide in on a strange niche and still top the scoreboard. Sometimes even as a response to enemy strange loadouts and equipment choices, which would lead to a dance back and force as the more threatening person/people on the enemy team countered me, so I changed to counter them. There was the option for spontaneity, and freedom, even if some of those freedoms were deemed by some to be irrelevant.

I can't do any of those things now.

While there was a certain and sometimes amusing social element to appearance and certain characters standing out, it wasn't a major element. It was merely flavor for me.

 

[KSHMR]

@Callum I personally believe that indeed a lot of players like to stand out from the crowd to formulate it in my own words. If you remember, we saw a lot of naked 2hander guys in warband. Or even a lot of naked people with 4 stacks of throwing weapon and no melee (just using that throwing stuff to melee basically). I don't think that removing these choices is a bad thing but that is my opinion. I say this because I dont like it very much when people take extremely controversial loadouts. Mostly these guys either werent playing serious or their goal was not to reach the best result with the team.

The whole point is that in Battle nobody takes these troll loadouts anyways. So I dont see that as being a reason to have to limit the customization options. I think that the concept as it is now is great, at least if we properly expand on it. This means adding a bit more variety to customization but also perhaps adding more customization options per class. Instead of 3 maybe 4,5 or even 6? I dont know this is whats on my mind.

Another thing is, and that is maybe the most important one:
Its just very cool to entirely choose your loadout. it feels great, there is something about it that makes people feel good I think.

However, if you look at this game from just a neutral perspective; its completely fine if we expand on this current system.

Most people however compare it to warband, but this isnt warband

 

[AxiosXiphos]

For me it was adjusting my gear choice to my current budget, deciding what gear to pick to be most useful, which happened to directly tie into visual customization.

"Should I cheap out on this shield so I can have more gold next round? What if I don't use a helmet and get a better body armour instead? It's risky, but it could give me an edge in melee fights. Okay, our team got smashed this round without getting any kills, I'll spawn with default gear to save gold and have a bigger chance of comeback in the round afterwards. Hm, I could either get the faster sword or throwing axes. Not both, though." and so on.

In Bannerlord such a choice boils down to straight up skipping a life, to spawn more times or with a better class next round, while in Warband you could still play and have impact while saving up.

I don't ever remember feeling this way. To me the warband system was "This is my optimum build for this price point this is what I will always play". I had a 1000, 1250 & 1500 build for every class for every faction. It always took the best weapon in the field I wanted, I took the best armour I could lvl out across the price point and the best shield (where applicable. As I got more gold I slowly ranked up my armour and maybe added javelins. That was it. I never made any choices, I never needed to make any choices. After 3k hours I knew every weapon inside-out and knew precisely the weapon I would use... forever. For all the times I played Swadian infantry I can count the times I didn't take the best sword/shield or the greatsword (or two handed for 1k pts) on one hand. All the swords apart from the best were irrelevant. Sometimes I took awlpikes...

 

[Ling*]

@Callum while i understand that the teams goal is to make both game modes accessible to people, i dont think that separating the classes/ balance changes will make it harder for new players to enjoy both game modes. In fact ide argue you would make the modes more unique and offer more gameplay variety to people. Its almost as if you are suggesting that the average person isnt smart enough to handle two different sets of classes for two different modes. Like our brains just would be too overwhelmed by the differences? Its almost insulting.

 

[Rangah]

I don't ever remember feeling this way. To me the warband system was "This is my optimum build for this price point this is what I will always play". I had a 1000, 1250 & 1500 build for every class for every faction. It always took the best weapon in the field I wanted, I took the best armour I could lvl out across the price point and the best shield (where applicable. As I got more gold I slowly ranked up my armour and maybe added javelins. That was it. I never made any choices, I never needed to make any choices. After 3k hours I knew every weapon inside-out and knew precisely the weapon I would use... forever. For all the times I played Swadian infantry I can count the times I didn't take the best sword/shield or the greatsword (or two handed for 1k pts) on one hand. All the swords apart from the best were irrelevant. Sometimes I took awlpikes...

But you had the choice. It's taken away from you now. That's the entire point. It took you 3000 hours to get to know every weapon. I think at that point it's quite reasonable to know the optimum loadout for each situation. But you COULD choose to not use it anyway.

I can personally get used to and play with the BL class system, it's just hard to see the reasoning why it was done this way.

 

[Younes]

@Callum
Most people however compare it to warband, but this isnt warband

Same way battlefield 3 isn't battlefield 4 but this doesn't mean you should remove armored cars in battlefield 4 when you know its something fun to battlefield 3.

I don't ever remember feeling this way. To me the warband system was "This is my optimum build for this price point this is what I will always play". I had a 1000, 1250 & 1500 build for every class for every faction. It always took the best weapon in the field I wanted, I took the best armour I could lvl out across the price point and the best shield (where applicable. As I got more gold I slowly ranked up my armour and maybe added javelins. That was it. I never made any choices, I never needed to make any choices. After 3k hours I knew every weapon inside-out and knew precisely the weapon I would use... forever. For all the times I played Swadian infantry I can count the times I didn't take the best sword/shield or the greatsword (or two handed for 1k pts) on one hand. All the swords apart from the best were irrelevant. Sometimes I took awlpikes...

You just stumbled your own toe. You are going to have the exact same situation in bannerlord if not less time to know each class inside and out.





Like said before, stop taking the playerbase like some bunch of retards that can't handle two class systems

 

[AxiosXiphos]

But you had the choice. It's taken away from you now. That's the entire point.

I can personally get used to and play with the BL class system, it's just hard to see the reasoning why it was done this way.

But It wasn't a real choice. I never had to make any hard decisions. The best weapon in each category was the only one worth taking (shout out to the scimitar - that was actually different to the elite scimitar). There was 4-5 weapon choices per class, one was largely irrelevant (like who is taking a war-pick seriously..)

Freaking Rhodoks were worse, its either a cleaver, a big cleaver or a glaive. I can take a spear but that's an extra... Add onto that the HUGE price jump between the ragged outfit and the mail and there was only about 4 different ways you could play that class.

 

[Younes]

But It wasn't a real choice. I never had to make any hard decisions. The best weapon in each category was the only one worth taking (shout out to the scimitar - that was actually different to the elite scimitar). There was 4-5 weapon choices per class, one was largely irrelevant (like who is taking a war-pick seriously..)

Freaking Rhodoks were worse, its either a cleaver, a big cleaver or a glaive. I can take a spear but that's an extra... Add onto that the HUGE price jump between the ragged outfit and the mail and there was only about 4 different ways you could play that class.

It was a choice. It was a compromise. You had x amount of money and it was up to you to decide if you wanted more armor on your helmet, or chest, or a better weapon, or a better shield, ...

I feel like you are completely ignornig everything axios just in favor of bannerlord for no reason despite bannerlord class system having its own major flaws.

 

[AxiosXiphos]

It was a choice. It was a compromise. You had x amount of money and it was up to you to decide if you wanted more armor on your helmet, or chest, or a better weapon, or a better shield, ...

I feel like you are completely ignornig everything axios just in favor of bannerlord for no reason despite bannerlord class system having its own major flaws.

It does have flaws yes; but so did Warband even after 10 years. My point is warband offered an illusion of a vast choice whereas bannerlord only gives you the choices that matter. Largely though you make the same choices; two handed or one handed/shield. Armour or speed. Spear or javelins. It's the same choices but broken down into the options that actually make a difference.

 

[ZydrateTheSmoothCriminal]

If classes are still in and not overhauled in a major way, your game will continue to be irrelevant. Not a single soul is enjoying classes and the fact that you still deny it and act like nothing is wrong is really making it laughable.

 

[Younes]

It does have flaws yes; but so did Warband even after 10 years. My point is warband offered an illusion of a vast choice whereas bannerlord only gives you the choices that matter. Largely though you make the same choices; two handed or one handed/shield. Armour or speed. Spear or javelins. It's the same choices but broken down into the options that actually make a difference.

You see it as choices that matter, i see it as being forced to take things i don't want. You can see this at very different perspectives.

You never had a problem with the warband system because you could play whatever way you wanted to play, you wanted to play premade classes? You did it. You made your own choices matter because the game let you make those choices in the first place.


Unlike bannerlord that forces you to take meaningful things. I hope you do know that a lot of people DON'T want to take meaningful choices?

 

[AxiosXiphos]

Theres no further point fighting about it. Nothing I can say will change your mind nor the other way. I do not agree the class system is responsible for the down-turn in player count though. That's an issue to do with servers and game mode limitation; when these are fixed numbers will bounce back up.

 

[Younes]

Theres no further point fighting about it. Nothing I can say will change your mind nor the other way. I do not agree the class system is responsible for the down-turn in player count though. That's an issue to do with servers and game mode limitation; when these are fixed numbers will bounce back up.

The class system isn't the only issue no. Combat is way ahead in terms of priority.

Also people still play the game for the combat, there is no denying that. You shouldn't think about how much players you are getting, but how much you're missing on.