State of Shield Infantry in 1.5.5

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Dextrus

Sergeant
LOL jinxed it. We had to postpone to next week due to a crash not MP related. 🤬
Sorry.


🤣
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😂 well I guess I am lucky I can’t play this weekend so I can’t get upset about not getting the patch.
 
I mean, after waiting for a game for 8 years, I expect the devs to know what they're doing. I rarely criticize Game Developers directly, but wtf was TW thinking? "LETS MAKE 2 CLASSES THAT ARE ALREADY OP AF EVEN MORE OP" ... makes total sense. Now we're at a point, where a cav player does 45 dmg with a lance to the chest of a heavy infantry while standing still, and xbows oneshot basically everything. AVRC wanted each class to be played by 33% of players per match... Instead of 33% x 3, we now have games with 3 archers and 3 cav players, because it is utterly useless to play infantry, as they get onehit by either cav or ranged. Good Job!
 

MP_Erik

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNW
Let's just hope that the update next week will make some of our points obsolete. Until then:
How would you rework the cav then?
-Make inf spears more effective in melee so they become dangerous to a stopped horse.
-Let melee hits on the horse affect the rider too as we had it in Warband. This would prevent cav from using their mount as a meatshield. (Or let strong hits on the horse and rearups interrupt the rider. )

Btw. how long does a thrust of a spear/lance stay at it's maximum reach? Depending on that there might be a very low skill ceiling until the range of a polearm is the sole decisive factor in a cavalry charge. This would make basically every polearm except the longest useless in an engagement with cavalry.

About the tanky archers: I kind of like the idea of having an elite archer unit that can hold up in melee as well but I think that can only work balance wise if infantry has access to good throwables so there is at least one way to counter them effectively.

Edit:
I think one problem with balancing shield infantry is that it is designed to be a jack of all traits that can kind of hold it's own against every class. According to common wisdom such a class should be a little below the power curve to compensate for the strategic flexibility.
This becomes problematic at the higher skill levels because the lack of randomness through errors and the lack in skill difference between players will eventually turn every soft counter into a hard counter if there is no mechanic in place to prevent that. I think for the M&B combat formula this is especially the case. In fact to many people it is a big selling point that a better player is nearly untouchable for a worse player and in a low error environment this will probably translate to the stronger class as well.
 
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Loyal2Odin

Sergeant
I mean, after waiting for a game for 8 years, I expect the devs to know what they're doing. I rarely criticize Game Developers directly, but wtf was TW thinking? "LETS MAKE 2 CLASSES THAT ARE ALREADY OP AF EVEN MORE OP" ... makes total sense. Now we're at a point, where a cav player does 45 dmg with a lance to the chest of a heavy infantry while standing still, and xbows oneshot basically everything. AVRC wanted each class to be played by 33% of players per match... Instead of 33% x 3, we now have games with 3 archers and 3 cav players, because it is utterly useless to play infantry, as they get onehit by either cav or ranged. Good Job!
This is precisely what is going on. Something needs to change urgently or nasty things gonna happen here, people will be even more toxic and we will see 6cavs team in skirmish all day. Lets hope for the best brother. Keep calm and play cav or archer.
 

hoonii

Sergeant at Arms
Btw. how long does a thrust of a spear/lance stay at it's maximum reach? Depending on that there might be a very low skill ceiling until the range of a polearm is the sole decisive factor in a cavalry charge. This would make basically every polearm except the longest useless in an engagement with cavalry.
Lances animations keep damaging for like 3-4 seconds after clicking. Even if it's fully thrusted, it still will deal full damage, even if it stopped thrusting. You made a good point I completely forgot about that.
Cav vs inf 1v1 takes some skill really. If he has a spear you just go sideways or angled and get some advantage and bait the infantry to early stab so you can counter attack. Shortening cav spears and lances and making inf spears longer could work but skilled riders will still be able to tackle with spears easily(as can be seen with nomad pre 1.5.5 and camel).
 

Mushbeast

Knight
Cav shields blocking spears to the horse is a big issue that needs fixing too, as it's way too easy to simply barge through an enemy army like that. You could be aiming at the ground and a small cav shield still somehow blocks it.

This, as well as making horses generally easier to kill especially after rears, should put cav in a balanced spot imo. They're always going to reak havoc in a disorganised fray as that's their specialty, but as it is now even a dedicated anti-cav spearman rarely has a chance to capitalise on cavalries mistakes.
 

Roadpork

Regular
I mean, after waiting for a game for 8 years, I expect the devs to know what they're doing. I rarely criticize Game Developers directly, but wtf was TW thinking? "LETS MAKE 2 CLASSES THAT ARE ALREADY OP AF EVEN MORE OP" ... makes total sense. Now we're at a point, where a cav player does 45 dmg with a lance to the chest of a heavy infantry while standing still, and xbows oneshot basically everything. AVRC wanted each class to be played by 33% of players per match... Instead of 33% x 3, we now have games with 3 archers and 3 cav players, because it is utterly useless to play infantry, as they get onehit by either cav or ranged. Good Job!

only people remaining care about balancing :sad:
most of the people left because of gameplay.
I don't know how statistics help with gameplay.
Player skill in 3 classes is untransferable in M&B. So, instead of switch classes, they just left
 
Was playing inf with spear this afternoon. SO many times a cav charged at full speed RIGHT into my spear and got like 30 dmg to the horse. Horses needs to be devastated by this kind of thing. Like it literally needs ot explode and propulse the rider into the nearest wall for him to break every bones of his body into... figure of speech. Theres no greater mistake for a cav than facing a foot spearman and losing his trade, this should be the biggest punishment ever imaginable for a cav.

Infantry has so many punishing aspects, such as, lets say, missing your blocks ? It seems like cav doesnt get punished nearly enough for his mistakes. Jesus christ all a inf has to do to get punished is not have his shield in the direction of the archers aiming at him with their Sniper rifles. Cav is literally the only class that is allowed to suck ass and still allowed to keep fooling around without dying. A bad inf will get melted for tons of punishing reasons and a bad archer will miss all his shots until he gets oneshotted by a xbolt in the knee or caught by an inf.

Inf gets punished for :
-Not hearing a cav charging in his back because the sound cues are hard to read.
-Missing blocks when you dont have a shield
-Finding yourself in a duel with another INF that is WAY better than you (yeah, you're dead meat mate)
-Getting outnumbered (it seems to me that it was SO MUCH easier to fight 2v1s in Warband than it is in Bannerlord, only ballerina gameplay seems to work here)
-Not jumping over arrows when you have a ****ty small shield/Having a small shield and getting shot in the pinky toe for 35 damage/Having a small shield and getting **** in the elbow for 45 damage (all of these done while pointing the shield in the proper direction)
-Trying to hit a ballerina dancer with a short weapon.
-Trying to upper block a mace that crushes through
-Getting in a 1v1 vs another inf and finding out your weapon is WAY slower than his (good luck)
-Trying to kill a cav's horse under him (bad idea, your sword will bounce off the horse and deal 4 damage instead of 60 like it should)
-Being caught in snipers's crossfires
-Getting shot in the face in the middle of a big melee brawl because archers open fire (PLEASE, for the LOVE of GOD, add friendly fire and make it punishing as HELL. 100% damage reflection into the attacker's FACE. Like if you decide to open fire in the middle of a fight with bunch of teamates around and end up missing and shooting a teamate in the head, sorry mate you just ONESHOTTED yourself.)
-Getting caught vs another inf while wearing a spear in hand (you're doomed to receive a hit when you're gonna switch to a weapon that doesnt do glancing blows)
-Climbing up ladders or siege tower (what a delightful moment. All these ladders are placed into perfect crossfire positions. Getting shot in the back every second while climbing ladders reminds you of how much of a fun time it is to play infantry in Bannerlord)
-Chasing an archer (BIG MISTAKE MA BOY, someone else is aiming at you with an AK47 at this very moment.)
-Side swinging into teamates because of the ultra WIDE readying of the swings.
-etc.
 
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Njördson

Veteran
Hello everyone,

It's an interesting topic and I'd just like to post my opinion on it after reading all of this

I think the cavalry is really a lovely class to play with whether it's in a duel or on the field. Clearly, it is the unit I think the most worked unit of the game and its domination does not surprise me so much since the SP and MP stats are linked, it is thus logical that a cavalry unit is stronger than an infantry unit in SP. it would be necessary to separate the modules but this is another story, we will surely come there with the mods :grin:

more simply, I think we can improve the quality of play of the infantry by some news updates:

1-very short lances that cause a lot of damage. A bit like the Alwpike on Warband

the fact that they are short does not make them playable by riders and the fact that they do a lot of damage will deter a rider from entering at full speed in the groupefight

2-Faster weapon switch & and a faster turnaround time

it allows for a faster game, with the possibility of turning around and making quick and surprising hits

These are just two improvements that would be really interesting. They are options that you can find on Warband and that I found interesting for a better infantry game. Don't hesitate to tell me what you think about them. I think that this can be a plus to the other requests made by the community without changing the rest of the units too much but let's see if it works

@TheBard
 
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Hello everyone,

It's an interesting topic and I'd just like to post my opinion on it after reading all of this

I think the cavalry is really a lovely class to play with whether it's in a duel or on the field. Clearly, it is the unit I think the most worked unit of the game and its domination does not surprise me so much since the SP and MP stats are linked, it is thus logical that a cavalry unit is stronger than an infantry unit in SP. it would be necessary to separate the modules but this is another story, we will surely come there with the mods :grin:

more simply, I think we can improve the quality of play of the infantry by some news updates:

1-very short lances that cause a lot of damage. A bit like the Alwpike on Warband

the fact that they are short does not make them playable by riders and the fact that they do a lot of damage will deter a rider from entering at full speed in the groupefight

2-Faster weapon switch & and a faster turnaround time

it allows for a faster game, with the possibility of turning around and making quick and surprising hits

These are just two improvements that would be really interesting. They are options that you can find on Warband and that I found interesting for a better infantry game. Don't hesitate to tell me what you think about them. I think that this can be a plus to the other requests made by the community without changing the rest of the game too much

@TheBard

I agree about the short spears. I miss the Alwspike from Warband, it was a pike, but very playable in 1v1 situations because of the upper swing. Right now spear is in a bad place where its only good for 2 things : Stopping horses (arguably "good") and 2v1 situations with teamates. I miss the Spears from Warband where they were valuable and independent weapons of their own.
 

Loyal2Odin

Sergeant
Hello everyone,

It's an interesting topic and I'd just like to post my opinion on it after reading all of this

I think the cavalry is really a lovely class to play with whether it's in a duel or on the field. Clearly, it is the unit I think the most worked unit of the game and its domination does not surprise me so much since the SP and MP stats are linked, it is thus logical that a cavalry unit is stronger than an infantry unit in SP. it would be necessary to separate the modules but this is another story, we will surely come there with the mods :grin:

more simply, I think we can improve the quality of play of the infantry by some news updates:

1-very short lances that cause a lot of damage. A bit like the Alwpike on Warband

the fact that they are short does not make them playable by riders and the fact that they do a lot of damage will deter a rider from entering at full speed in the groupefight

2-Faster weapon switch & and a faster turnaround time

it allows for a faster game, with the possibility of turning around and making quick and surprising hits

These are just two improvements that would be really interesting. They are options that you can find on Warband and that I found interesting for a better infantry game. Don't hesitate to tell me what you think about them. I think that this can be a plus to the other requests made by the community without changing the rest of the units too much but let's see if it works

@TheBard
@Njördson Actually that sounds super interesting. I would like to ask @AVRC if the developers have considered implementing awlpikes at some point in the game? Probably after next patch spears are gonna be much more effective, but this might still be a nice idea.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
If you want to give infantry extremely fast and high damaging spears, you have to add the short stun when it gets blocked, otherwise it becomes the most effective melee weapon in the game. We had this already with spears in beta, which everyone used and spammed at opponents from a distance with instant, high damage on successful hits.

It also doesn't really address the cav problem, since cav's strength is deciding who to engage and being able to change targets quickly.
 
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