State of Shield Infantry in 1.5.5

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IceNoVa

The Kaiser
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WBM&BVCNWWF&S
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I just want to not be outranged by a couch lance when I try to rear the horse with my spear but my timing is only 98% perfect so I get demolished anyway.
 

TheBard

Salt Knight
Sergeant Knight at Arms
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While I do agree that cav is too strong, this is turning into a witch hunt or something. Even if cav were twice as slow, spears could oneshot them and horses would be twice as weak as they are now, they will still be annoying and backstab people, and be the majority of annoying deaths an inf suffers.

People cry about cav to no end while there are still archers with 2handed weapons and oneshotting menavlions, glaives, bardiches and whatnot in the game...
Yeah, that all is true, but why again does a heavy horse now need a two hander option on top? I also criticize Fianns for getting access to superior twohanders, it's as broken as this **** is.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
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While I do agree that cav is too strong, this is turning into a witch hunt or something. Even if cav were twice as slow, spears could oneshot them and horses would be twice as weak as they are now, they will still be annoying and backstab people, and be the majority of annoying deaths an inf suffers.

People cry about cav to no end while there are still archers with 2handed weapons and oneshotting menavlions, glaives, bardiches and whatnot in the game...
It's true that cav and archers are always going to be strong, getting kills, and annoying the inf, so long as the player is skilled. But that's more reason to be extremely precise and careful in tuning them, not less.
 

jon01

Knight
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"But then we discovered almost all of us favored the Battanian Fiann the heavy archer of the Battanian faction. As we thought why we realized that we was not just a ranged character, he was perfectly capable of drawing his two handed sword and engage his opponent in a melee fight. So we applied that lesson to other factions, changed the heavy archers into deadly melee guys, gave all of them good melee weapons, swords, shields, glaives, spears etc.

We didn't nerfed their bows though."


It makes sense for the community to use whatever little power they have in MP at the moment to craft something that's much more reasonable and enjoyable for everyone.

I guess TW doesn't understand that M&B isn't like Age of Empires, where AI troops don't complain about unfun battles. M&B is a mix of action and strategy (even in Captains mode). You have to do the actual fighting. It matters how much fun that action is going to be. For that reason, I'd imagine limits against certain problems with archers will always be welcome.

Anti-cavalry can potentially be very fun and satisfying, but cavalry can often get away with too much. Addressing this might not have as much to do with class limits or nerfs, though, as just improving infantry mechanics. The problem with Bannerlord is that on-foot manoeuvrability is really weak and stifling, and the spear can be a bit flaky and rubbish. The melee, animation and movement still need a lot of tweaking to make it the best it can be.

Also, I can't understand TW's desire to see "peasants on the same field as knights" and the desire to see people playing different classes rather than specialising. Is it something to do with planned skins/microtransactions (i.e. to get people buying items for as many different troops as possible)? Or is it just some experimental idea in general? Lots of players do multi-class out of choice when playing on public servers anyway, but they prefer to specialise in specific classes for the tournaments, for obvious reasons.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
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How would you rework the cav then?
-Remove most of their armour, especially horse armour
-reduce their top speed and reduce their "drifting" capability, whilst maintaining or improving manoeuvrability at lower speeds
-stop them pushing ground troops, friend or foe, around
-harsher threshold for being reared up when hitting objects, and include hitting another horse as a rear-up (last bit isn't necessary a nerf)
-cooldown on doubletap W instant top speed after being reared up
-slowdown the thrust animation

There are some buffs as well I would add, in addition to improving turning at low speeds:

-make the foot hitboxes smaller or more tucked in; extremely easy to accidentally hit them
-make bumpstab threshold very slightly easier
-rework maps to have less safe hiding archer spots
-speed up the horse jump responsiveness
 

hoonii

Sergeant
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-reduce their top speed and reduce their "drifting" capability, whilst maintaining or improving manoeuvrability at lower speeds
-stop them pushing ground troops, friend or foe, around
-cooldown on doubletap W instant top speed after being reared up
-slowdown the thrust animation
Would agree to these somewhat.
-Remove most of their armour, especially horse armour
-harsher threshold for being reared up when hitting objects, and include hitting another horse as a rear-up (last bit isn't necessary a nerf)
But these are going to completely kill cav, it's just unacceptable. It's not the armor that is the problem it's that swords and **** deal too low damage to armor in general. Maybe horse armor can be reduced from around 45 to 30-35 but reducing it greatly is just out of question.
Horse rear ups when you hit some wall or something is a really annoying thing and there are still places in maps where horse gets stuck, stops or rears or you just get teleported to oblivion and back(them goddamn melons on town outskirts).

Guys please, nerfing cav to pieces won't make your pretty infantry stronger. Main idea here is that infantry is at a weak spot because they lack the flexibility and broken killing power they had before 1.5.5 and/or 1.5. I know having 6 of laser accuracy whilst moving javelins with 50 damage each shot was when you got your first boner but infantry had a lot of broken equipment and when they all got nerfed/removed we saw how infantry sucked in reality. I agree throwing axes nerf was too harsh and they should get a damage buff around 40-45, so more damage than javelins.
Perhaps developers intended archers and cav to be superior to infantry and maybe they still do, considering the last cav update and archery update.

So many people hating on cav so much that it's sometimes really sad. I know spears ****ing suck I have been trying them in melee fights recently and they really REALLY suck like doing 5-10 damage to head most of the time and only viable option is kick-stab or bash-stab and I agree spears should get much more love like damage buff and devs already said they're trying to fix the glancing issue. Just please, neither cav nor archers are super op it's just feels like to infantry players because infantry used to be the ultimate killing machine but then the op parts of inf got nerfed.

TL ****ing DR: obviously infantry needs some love but cav is good at its position no overhauls or anything to smash it to pieces are needed apart from some damage and reach nerfs to lances, it's just infantry that needs more weapons and damage buffs and issue fixes.

sorry
 

Yukmouth++

Sergeant at Arms
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As long as archers shoot laser beams and horses have 5423482482842842 hitpoints with melee weapons bouncing on them, Inf is gonna be bullcrap.
 

Fietta

buıʇʇǝs uoıʇɔǝɹıp ʞɔɐʇʇɐ
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I played BL yesterday, the hitboxes for spears have improved against cavalry, you don't have to hit directly in front of the horse. Unfortunately, even after rearing the same heavy cavalry five times with a long spear, he still got to roam free (I was defending on flag). I'd expect a heavy cavalry to dismount in 3 or 4 rears with light cavalry with 2 - 3.
 

Roadpork

Regular
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the reason for myself to pick heavy inf:

archer: I rather play FPS in an actual FPS game
cav: jumping inside narrow spaces. It doesn't feel like riding horse
light inf: arrow target/short-ranged archer(throwing weapons).
heavy inf: finally tasted like a medieval game but hold the right mouse button is boring.


Okay, I drop my shield, charge till I die, satisfied.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Master Knight
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"But then we discovered almost all of us favored the Battanian Fiann the heavy archer of the Battanian faction. As we thought why we realized that we was not just a ranged character, he was perfectly capable of drawing his two handed sword and engage his opponent in a melee fight. So we applied that lesson to other factions, changed the heavy archers into deadly melee guys, gave all of them good melee weapons, swords, shields, glaives, spears etc.

We didn't nerfed their bows though."


It makes sense for the community to use whatever little power they have in MP at the moment to craft something that's much more reasonable and enjoyable for everyone.

I guess TW doesn't understand that M&B isn't like Age of Empires, where AI troops don't complain about unfun battles. M&B is a mix of action and strategy (even in Captains mode). You have to do the actual fighting. It matters how much fun that action is going to be. For that reason, I'd imagine limits against certain problems with archers will always be welcome.

Anti-cavalry can potentially be very fun and satisfying, but cavalry can often get away with too much. Addressing this might not have as much to do with class limits or nerfs, though, as just improving infantry mechanics. The problem with Bannerlord is that on-foot manoeuvrability is really weak and stifling, and the spear can be a bit flaky and rubbish. The melee, animation and movement still need a lot of tweaking to make it the best it can be.

Also, I can't understand TW's desire to see "peasants on the same field as knights" and the desire to see people playing different classes rather than specialising. Is it something to do with planned skins/microtransactions (i.e. to get people buying items for as many different troops as possible)? Or is it just some experimental idea in general? Lots of players do multi-class out of choice when playing on public servers anyway, but they prefer to specialise in specific classes for the tournaments, for obvious reasons.
You are a bad person, how dare you make me read those statements again! Tonight I had nightmares again.
With love™ :lol:
 
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hoonii

Sergeant
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Lol, I meant not in general but when horse becomes literally uncontrollable if it's a fast horse and when even you're s-s ing to stop your horse it will still rear up in a 45 degree angle. Fix how bad horses handle in max speed and than it will be fine. The gif made laugh tho lmao.
No it won't.
You best believe it will. You know there are still archers to be taken into account and considering they still do 80 damage with a neck shot(which is super easy) to an armored horse, should you reduce armor even more 2 shots and horses are going down. Bad choice.
Of course it will!
**It won't**
 

Mushbeast

Squire
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I'd love if infantry was just much faster in general, which would indirectly buff them against archers as you'll stand more of a chance dodging and chasing.

If spear + shield was a respectable combo (it can be, but mostly for the stagger on hit which a teammate can follow up on) then more teams would have a composition capable of dealing with cav. It would be a nice change to the meta too.

Finally, it would've been nice if there was a bigger difference between light, medium and heavy infantry in terms of armor especially against projectiles. I'd love to know Talesworlds view on whether they will add new classes down the line.
 

AVRC

MP Dev
Developer
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This thread has been mostly great, thanks to everyone who shared their opinions in a civil manner.
I think many people will be pleased with today's patch.
 

OurGloriousLeader

Grandmaster Knight
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Lol, I meant not in general but when horse becomes literally uncontrollable if it's a fast horse and when even you're s-s ing to stop your horse it will still rear up in a 45 degree angle. Fix how bad horses handle in max speed and than it will be fine. The gif made laugh tho lmao.
It's a powerful gif. Well that is why I suggested a countering buff to manoeuvrability at lower speeds, to encourage control. Right now going full speed is basically unpunished because u can drift pretty easily, and you really need to mess up to get reared by an object (barring some bugs like a pile of rocks doing it or whatever). Going top speed should make it difficult to adjust, but going slow should give you finesse.

You best believe it will. You know there are still archers to be taken into account and considering they still do 80 damage with a neck shot(which is super easy) to an armored horse, should you reduce armor even more 2 shots and horses are going down. Bad choice.
It won't because what I described is effectively Warband, where cav were absolutely dominant and fear weaker than BL cav with the exception of bumpstabs being easier. Similarly light cav are not bad in BL, they're actually very good - they just get picked less than heavy cav because the latter is completely broken.

And of course nerfing cav will be a buff to inf, because right now inf are being punished by 2 classes. Any nerfs to the latter help the former.