Started playing Darklands again...

[sheek]

Well then, that's cool.

One thing I'd stress is that if you have such small parties to make the map much smaller. In fact, do not let the program randomly generate maps. Focus the action. If an encounter is triggered by resisting a group of bandits you shouldn't have to cross a river and a mountain range to reach them.

 

[Hellequin]

Oh, and just so we're clear - suppressing Leadership's effect, specifically, is trivial in the new version.  How many troops it adds per point is a constant in the new module_constants.py, set to 5 in Native.  Dunno if anyone's checked it with a setting of zero yet, but that's a quick check and then we're done.  Hence my suggesting we use that, at first, and not bother to code a check-number thing.  Not to mention that it would be kind of nice to have Cha have a useful effect all on its own.

 

[fisheye]

For future reference:

How to make small random terrain.

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,16207.msg322943.html#msg322943

 

[fisheye]

Oh, and just so we're clear - suppressing Leadership's effect, specifically, is trivial in the new version.  How many troops it adds per point is a constant in the new module_constants.py, set to 5 in Native.  Dunno if anyone's checked it with a setting of zero yet, but that's a quick check and then we're done.  Hence my suggesting we use that, at first, and not bother to code a check-number thing.  Not to mention that it would be kind of nice to have Cha have a useful effect all on its own.

Uh, which constant? Didn't see it....

 

[sheek]

So, you'll simply change the interface texture file to rename the skills? Awesome if that works...

 

[Hellequin]

Doesn't yet work (so far as anyone knows), but it's on the wishlist...

And, fisheye, you're right - I seem to have misspoken.  Ah, I know, it was on the list of changes to module.ini, before we'd seen the 0.803 module system.  Winter found it.  Interestingly, I can't find the bits in the module system which look like they'd generate that... this may mean it's harder to modify than the hand-inspection of module.ini would imply.  Or that it will require a bit of a post-compile hack.  Hmm.

 

[ronin47]

Hey ronin, thanks for posting, what have you got so far?

Like I wrote I have to start up completely! The things I tried didn´t function at all since I´m new to modding. From an Outside Perspective I must say I have learned a lot, but the whole thing was crap. Ask me in 1/2 a Year again.

The new Plan is back to my original Idea with a Part of Central and Southern Germany as Map. The Scenario will Center on the Power Struggle between the Nobility, the City´s and the Prince Electors. The Original Idea was to concentrate more on a Darklands-Style-RPG-Mod with 20-40 Hireable NPCs and the whole DL-Map. I use now the smaller Map because I can (nearly) have all the relevant Factions and Groups (like Teutonic Knights, Hospitallers, Mearchant-Leagues and so on) I wanted anyway on a much more realistic approach.  An example, take a look at the DL-Map at the Region between Speyer, Frankfurt, Würzburg and Heidelberg. As I remember there were
5 Cities, 6 Hamlets and 0 Castles in this Area. In the real 15th Cnt there were there 40 Cities, 90 Hamlets, 70 Castles and over 2000 Villages. Although it´s impossible to recreate this with the M&B-Engine I want to make it a bit more realistic without compromising Gameplay. I plan to make it more like the "Battle for Sicily"-Mod, which i played very much over the last few Months, and very few  hidden Fantasy Elements (definetly NO Templars but MAYBE a Dragon)
 

 

[Hellequin]

Oh, and a couple more thoughts...

In order to prevent prisoners, we don't even have to do the kludge of letting you take all you like but never buying them.  This skill's value, too, is settable in the same place (or lack thereof) as the leadership skill's per-point value; we should test setting it to zero, but if so we can just leave it there.  And, whether or not that works, all enemy troops can be set to never-capturable.

And the third "overloaded" function of Prisoner Management would need to be the Artifice skill.  Which eliminates some DL builds; as I recall I used to make my alchemist also my artificier much of the time, but that's okay.  This functionality can be the default one (picked up by the PC leader), since you don't need a "use the Artifice skill now" interface, it comes up automatically under menus where appropriate. 

Or - ooh.  Here we go.  This is lovely.  "Skill overload type" can be a slot on the character.  Values are either priest_type, alchemist_type, or artificier_type.  (Any other skill areas from DL we haven't captured?)  Then, during character creation, you get to pick one of those for your PC, with a "none" option perhaps (which leaves you open to pursuing any of the three via instruction in-game).  Then, if you're playing a Priest, we include the "Young Acolyte" NPC in the game; dialogue with him accesses your saints list, but the dialogue is different - you're leading him in prayer, rather than the reverse.  And if you're playing an Alchemist, we include the "Student" NPC in the same way.  In any event, now whenever we check for the "highest [Priest-type] Prisoner Management skill," you get included if appropriate.  So a dedicated PC priest would work; he'd just need little Joe the Choirboy as his walking menu interface, until/unless we get "talking to yourself" working properly.

 

[fisheye]

Ronin: That sounds very cool. Not a Darklands mod, but definitely a medieval Germany mod. Nice.

Hellequin: Very good ideas....

Ok, who's actually working on this mod? Seengs? Hellequin? I've got no bloody time and I really shouldn't start one. I can help contribute a few code snippets but that's it.

 

[The Pope]

I'll contribute a suit of gothic plate armor and tweak some of my earlier stuff for use in the mod.

 

[bryce777]

Ronin: That sounds very cool. Not a Darklands mod, but definitely a medieval Germany mod. Nice.

Hellequin: Very good ideas....

Ok, who's actually working on this mod? Seengs? Hellequin? I've got no bloody time and I really shouldn't start one. I can help contribute a few code snippets but that's it.

I have done lots of code that would help.  Once I get done with current mod, this was actually the next thing I had planned.

 

[bryce777]

Once I get done with current mod, this was actually the next thing I had planned.

Ooh. Need any help with Leaguer of Maedhros?

I can always use help, but you are a scripter type guy, right?  That I can do, though help with any oddities always hlps a ton.  Ever successfully call a dialog from a menu?  Every time I do, it basically crashes the game.  it has a weird indescribable bug and game is unplayable.  Very odd stuff.  I am going to retry on .80x soon, though.  Might solve it.  I might also try temporarily ptting that person in the party, as well.

 

[Seengs]

I am an active supporter of you more talented folks...  I really need to get into the guts of mod making, but I have 0 skill in it at this point.  I'm soooper busy in RL, as are others here, but I'll contribute if I can.  Im gonna mess around with modeling, and check out the map maker when I get some free time.  Moral support is my #1 function right now. 

 

[Hellequin]

I'm seriously succumbing to the temptation to take this sucker on as primary developer.

I have five kids.  I must be insane.

If I am to do so, I'd need to know who I could delegate to, and what.  It's worth noting that I have done no modding yet except for snippets of contribution to Storymod, and an (inexplicably failed) code chunk to implement faction loyalty in troops.  But I'm quite comfortable with my ability to handle coding, scripting, troop design, dialogue and quests.

What I would need most - Seeings, I'm looking at you here, inclusively - is someone(s) who can take direction well and would exhibit determination in sticking with a project even when I ask them to do their share of the painfully sloggy bits.  I'm thinking scenes and models, primarily. And by 'take direction well' I mean turning a set of picky and/or vague artistic guidelines into reality.  Secondarily, implementing random encounters once we work out a basic pattern of menus, skill checks, and outcomes including battle scenes.

Tertiarily - fisheye? pope? bryce777? - I would need sage advice on coding, especially help with debugging.  Stuff like "yeah, start_map_conversation is buggy, don't use it if you don't have to."  Where the code is relatively self-explanatory, I can handle it.  Where Winter's docs address it, I can handle it.  In the gaps... not so much.  Bryce, whatever code & writing you've got so far, I would humbly beg as much right to piggyback on what you've done as you can bear to share.  I'll countercommit to sharing whatever I do on Darkerlands (possibly Darkenlands?), of course.

If I get volunteers, serious volunteers, for the above... then, damn it, I'll do it.

Going off to reinstall my copy of DL now...

 

[bryce777]

I'm seriously succumbing to the temptation to take this sucker on as primary developer.

I have five kids.  I must be insane.

If I am to do so, I'd need to know who I could delegate to, and what.  It's worth noting that I have done no modding yet except for snippets of contribution to Storymod, and an (inexplicably failed) code chunk to implement faction loyalty in troops.  But I'm quite comfortable with my ability to handle coding, scripting, troop design, dialogue and quests.

What I would need most - Seeings, I'm looking at you here, inclusively - is someone(s) who can take direction well and would exhibit determination in sticking with a project even when I ask them to do their share of the painfully sloggy bits.  I'm thinking scenes and models, primarily. And by 'take direction well' I mean turning a set of picky and/or vague artistic guidelines into reality.  Secondarily, implementing random encounters once we work out a basic pattern of menus, skill checks, and outcomes including battle scenes.

Tertiarily - fisheye? pope? bryce777? - I would need sage advice on coding, especially help with debugging.  Stuff like "yeah, start_map_conversation is buggy, don't use it if you don't have to."  Where the code is relatively self-explanatory, I can handle it.  Where Winter's docs address it, I can handle it.  In the gaps... not so much.  Bryce, whatever code & writing you've got so far, I would humbly beg as much right to piggyback on what you've done as you can bear to share.  I'll countercommit to sharing whatever I do on Darkerlands (possibly Darkenlands?), of course.

If I get volunteers, serious volunteers, for the above... then, damn it, I'll do it.

Going off to reinstall my copy of DL now...

Well, I already have basic encounters set up like in darklands, but for my mod.  It is not for the faint of heart, however. 

I would suggest that if you are serious to start making a map first.  Then try and get people to do demos and such.  Just going after contributers is a lot of work.

Then, when you are more ready and I have ported my code to .80x (still waiting for a few issues to be resolved before taking this on) we can see about code.  I have scripts to create towns and such.  I imagine in a few months I will have LoM released and pretty stable, and that might be a good time to actually integrate the code.  There is quite a lot.  QUITE a lot.  If I just hand it off to you now, the codebases will diverge.  If this were C++ or Java I am sure I could recover, but seeing as it is the M&B modding system I would wait a while on integrating code - but my plan all along was to get a darklands mod rolling if I could interest people.  I assume by that time I will be somewhat burnt out, but by then it will be largely a matter of renaming mosters and doing lots of rewriting.

 

[fisheye]

Well let's just throw stuff on the wall until we have something that sticks.

Here's a rough map I made in an hour or so:

Yeah, it's got crazy terrain and mountains that don't exist, but it's Germany, I swears it! 

Next I'll rename the towns from Native and put them in the locations of the major cities.

 

[Hellequin]

Thank you both - very much!

I'm certain that I want to first begin with a small subset of the content, which will make the map not irrelevant, but not critical.  One city.  One nearby raubritter's tower.  Say four random encounters.

Did I note correctly that we can now (as of 0.80x) implement pictures of our own, in the background of menu items?  Or is that just in the intro screen only?

Regardless, I'm going to assume that we will at some point be able to put background pictures behind our menus.  In which case I have a job for someone - .  You will need a functioning C++ compiler (which I currently do not have on this machine), apparently preferably with MFC (which I've never heard of 'til today, it's been a long time since I've used C++), and enough skill to write very simple C++ code.  The job is this:
- Go get this package.  Includes libraries for reading Darklands' .pic format, and documentation for same.
- The code therein should allow you to make usable copies of all of the Darklands picture files (the .pic contents of the /Pics subfolder) translated into .bmp format.  Obviously many of these are weapon and armour pictures, these may be ignored.  All of the rest I would like made available to the project as bitmaps.  From bitmap we can go to whichever format is usable in M&B menus, if and when we get that capability.  I will provide upload space for pictures on my own site.

I'm also actively compiling a list of "first pass" scenes which I'd like to populate for the city.  I'll post again tonight with my plan for which ones to implement as menus, which ones as outdoor scenes, and which ones as indoor shops.

 

[Hellequin]

Ah - think I just answered one of the above questions.  From the new module_game_menus.py, under the characteristics of a menu entry:

4) mesh-name (string). Not currently used. Must be the string "none"

But I betcha by the time we're done that will no longer be the case...

 

[bryce777]

That would be awesome to have that.  I am sure I could do it, though I have tons on my plate already.  A better idea might be to just get screen captures and then get some of the great artists in here like merklr or stefano or a few of the others to take a shot at drawing them in higher resolution and adding their own touches.

I did request the ability to do this.  It's amazing how responsive armagan is because I am pretty sure that was not in there before! 

 

[fisheye]

Nah I think it's been in there since v0.73 or earlier. Armagan will probably add it in soon.

I agree with Hellequin. Since we're not rushing out alphas by the dozen, we should have the templates set up first. So one tiny tiny map (FAST load time for debug!), one city, one Raubritter's tower.

I'm envisioning using the same pool of NPC troops for every city (with generic names of "Merchant", "Fugger" and "Alchemist", etc), with their inventories refreshed every time you enter the city. Essentially removes the need for hordes of troop types for the huge number of cities, we just need maybe 10-20 generic faces and a fixed hash function to pick the same face (and clothes) for a given city's given merchant. You guys have probably thought of the same thing already.

I don't think extracting the images is critical since we can't use them yet. Plain menus will do for now.

Since we've essentially got three scripters, though, a versioning control system is the first thing we should set up. This way, each of us can add to the code whenever we have any spare time. This mod is 90% scripting.

Luckily all three of us are programmers so we know how to use CVS and Subversion. Unfortunately I don't have a host nor do I know how to set up something like Sourceforge. Bryce, Hellequin, any suggestions?

EDIT: PS. Hellequin if you're going to be mod executive you should start a new thread so you have control of the first post and can update it with team rosters and progress reports and such rubbish.