Started playing Darklands again...
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bryce777
Count
Darklands is the first thing I thought of when I played this game, and I wish it took on more of that style.
The mod I am working on (Leaguer of Maedhros) will be a lot like the style of Darklands, but in the setting of tolkien's world. The encounters all work just like in darklands already. Lots of features have been added, but I still need to make the main questline (which will be subtle like in darklands) and add tons of actual content.
The mod I am working on (Leaguer of Maedhros) will be a lot like the style of Darklands, but in the setting of tolkien's world. The encounters all work just like in darklands already. Lots of features have been added, but I still need to make the main questline (which will be subtle like in darklands) and add tons of actual content.
Pnakotus
Sergeant at Arms
It was pretty sad that DL was never properly 'finished': there were incomplete or unincluded features hinted at all over the place. Still, it was fun until you spammed out flashbangs and acid to kill a dragon every few months. 
PS don't tell Pope, it had a stamina based knockout system!
PS don't tell Pope, it had a stamina based knockout system!
Hellequin
Sergeant at Arms
That truly is an excellent idea. And, you know what? It would be pretty darn close to doable using the existing mod system. (And presumably this will remain true with the new mod system once we find out what it is.) Just a lot of work.
Random encounters are doable using triggers. Many things that were menu-driven choices in DL would need to remain so; others would become dialogue options rather than menus, in M&B terms, but could retain much the same functionality. Others - the Witches' Sabbath, for instance - could become more like M&B towns. The wealth of options in a single Darklands city makes me want to send Armagan a copy just for that aspect alone. (Alas, UltimateDarklands.com seems to have shut down; EBay copies tend to be pretty expensive, esp. once you figure in duties and so forth.)
Priestly magic could be very workable in M&B; the module system can read current stat values, store them in variables or slots, and set new ones. The biggest question would be how to trigger it. If I were writing the Darklands mod, I would have a specific priest NPC and prayer would be one of his dialogue options, and in general I'd be using the spirit of it and the saints straight up, but not the specific implementation (divine favour points per person etc). Honestly this, by itself, would make an amazing mini-mod - and far more doable than the whole conversion.
Alchemy would be trickier, for the most part. Yoshi's work on spells for RPGmod would be pretty much required (and he's not sharing!) for the projectile potions. Healing potions would be tricky too, although potentially doable using "on-fire" functions of weapons and a "weapon" potion bottle. The armour and weapon and stat enhancers would be easy, but left by themselves would kinda suck. Were it me, I'd focus on alchemy as a skill-supplement and menu-choices area. (Things like the Transformation potion which give you new ways around problems, or the eat-away-a-lock potion, or the like.) Better yet you could do some neat stuff with functions left out of Darklands... imagine a youth potion! High payoff if you ever manage it, but low payoff along the way - that would be the way I'd do it. (And non-utility uses of the Alchemy skill itself. Can you envision a vain Raubritter who wants his future told from the stars and his alchemical humours?)
Hmmm... the saints-and-prayer thing is really, really tempting to develop as a mini-mod. So classy. So very classy.
Random encounters are doable using triggers. Many things that were menu-driven choices in DL would need to remain so; others would become dialogue options rather than menus, in M&B terms, but could retain much the same functionality. Others - the Witches' Sabbath, for instance - could become more like M&B towns. The wealth of options in a single Darklands city makes me want to send Armagan a copy just for that aspect alone. (Alas, UltimateDarklands.com seems to have shut down; EBay copies tend to be pretty expensive, esp. once you figure in duties and so forth.)
Priestly magic could be very workable in M&B; the module system can read current stat values, store them in variables or slots, and set new ones. The biggest question would be how to trigger it. If I were writing the Darklands mod, I would have a specific priest NPC and prayer would be one of his dialogue options, and in general I'd be using the spirit of it and the saints straight up, but not the specific implementation (divine favour points per person etc). Honestly this, by itself, would make an amazing mini-mod - and far more doable than the whole conversion.
Alchemy would be trickier, for the most part. Yoshi's work on spells for RPGmod would be pretty much required (and he's not sharing!) for the projectile potions. Healing potions would be tricky too, although potentially doable using "on-fire" functions of weapons and a "weapon" potion bottle. The armour and weapon and stat enhancers would be easy, but left by themselves would kinda suck. Were it me, I'd focus on alchemy as a skill-supplement and menu-choices area. (Things like the Transformation potion which give you new ways around problems, or the eat-away-a-lock potion, or the like.) Better yet you could do some neat stuff with functions left out of Darklands... imagine a youth potion! High payoff if you ever manage it, but low payoff along the way - that would be the way I'd do it. (And non-utility uses of the Alchemy skill itself. Can you envision a vain Raubritter who wants his future told from the stars and his alchemical humours?)
Hmmm... the saints-and-prayer thing is really, really tempting to develop as a mini-mod. So classy. So very classy.
its doable in 751 but time consuming, like everything else in life.
magic might be handled through a spell book. i'm trying to scheme out a function that when a weapon (spellbook or magic sword or whatever) is used in combat, you jump to a menu that allows several choices. when you select the choice, it drops back to combat, and the weapon implements the attack type selected (fire, water, earth, wind). if i get it going, i'll throw it out. it has no application to m3, but was an excercise of 'can it be done in python' thing...
saints prayers can be done the same way. have an amulet, icon, holy symbool, whatever that when its used in the attack, it allows the 'prayer' choice to pop up.
ever since i saw how the formation command was implement, i can see a workaround for both problems, and not with great effort, they can be overcome. i prolly spent several hundred hours playing and replaying Darklands back in the day... and nearly all of the functions can be implemented or 'spoofed' in one way or another.
time. now is not the time for me. but i would offer suggestions and minor code help - to a talented person that wanted to tackle the honor.
i would, however, suggest a 'tribute' mod to Darklands, having the same atmosphere, flavor, setting, weapons, and events. that way, you could happily diverge without having that constrained feeling. if you're serious, start creating that german map (use a REAL elevation map as a base - get it more real than the original), set up the towns in the right spot (using a 290x290 map, of course), start collecting weapons, armor and props permissions and eliminate those items that have no impact on the project. do all the towns up. set up the enemies and their attacks and conversations. then, after the three months it takes to do that, to make the mod unique:
1) set up the water transport scheme to move from town to town via converasation with a boat captain down at the docks.
2) set up town entry to always roll through a conversation with guards at the gate, as well as lock out at night.
3) set up your random events - this can be hybridized from a bunch of other mods
4) set up your fixed missions (raubritters, merchant missions, theft, etc) - this can be way expanded beyond the original also
5) set up your timed events and unique conversations
6) set up the prayer and magic schemes
1-5 are the simplest. 6 is the toughest, but can be done. if you do everything else (which is just time consuming, no complications) they'll be 10 people to brain trust the last. don't be intimidated on the project complexity - but respect what i tell you: modding is time consuming and frustrating. you'll be an expert bug hunter by the time you're done. and you'll know all sorts of wierd coding resolutions.
i reccomend 100+ random and 100+fixed events that don't repeat themselves for 30 game days or so... no one will ever get bored. prolly end up being the most popular mod, except for the die hard tolkien and jedi types. luuuuuuuk. lots of it. maw
magic might be handled through a spell book. i'm trying to scheme out a function that when a weapon (spellbook or magic sword or whatever) is used in combat, you jump to a menu that allows several choices. when you select the choice, it drops back to combat, and the weapon implements the attack type selected (fire, water, earth, wind). if i get it going, i'll throw it out. it has no application to m3, but was an excercise of 'can it be done in python' thing...
saints prayers can be done the same way. have an amulet, icon, holy symbool, whatever that when its used in the attack, it allows the 'prayer' choice to pop up.
ever since i saw how the formation command was implement, i can see a workaround for both problems, and not with great effort, they can be overcome. i prolly spent several hundred hours playing and replaying Darklands back in the day... and nearly all of the functions can be implemented or 'spoofed' in one way or another.
time. now is not the time for me. but i would offer suggestions and minor code help - to a talented person that wanted to tackle the honor.
i would, however, suggest a 'tribute' mod to Darklands, having the same atmosphere, flavor, setting, weapons, and events. that way, you could happily diverge without having that constrained feeling. if you're serious, start creating that german map (use a REAL elevation map as a base - get it more real than the original), set up the towns in the right spot (using a 290x290 map, of course), start collecting weapons, armor and props permissions and eliminate those items that have no impact on the project. do all the towns up. set up the enemies and their attacks and conversations. then, after the three months it takes to do that, to make the mod unique:
1) set up the water transport scheme to move from town to town via converasation with a boat captain down at the docks.
2) set up town entry to always roll through a conversation with guards at the gate, as well as lock out at night.
3) set up your random events - this can be hybridized from a bunch of other mods
4) set up your fixed missions (raubritters, merchant missions, theft, etc) - this can be way expanded beyond the original also
5) set up your timed events and unique conversations
6) set up the prayer and magic schemes
1-5 are the simplest. 6 is the toughest, but can be done. if you do everything else (which is just time consuming, no complications) they'll be 10 people to brain trust the last. don't be intimidated on the project complexity - but respect what i tell you: modding is time consuming and frustrating. you'll be an expert bug hunter by the time you're done. and you'll know all sorts of wierd coding resolutions.
i reccomend 100+ random and 100+fixed events that don't repeat themselves for 30 game days or so... no one will ever get bored. prolly end up being the most popular mod, except for the die hard tolkien and jedi types. luuuuuuuk. lots of it. maw
bryce777
Count
You dont really use prayers during combat anyhow, and not potions that much. So, it would not be hard.
I have sorcery instead of saints or alchemy, though I might put in some kind of alchemy as well.
I am almost sure the menus in combat will not work. I call menus in combat already and they pop up after combat so it seems doubtful. If you get it working let me know.
It would be nice to do menus or conversation at any point. Right now it is maddening at times getting them to work together. I can't sem to call a conversation from a menu wihout a game crash...if anyone else has, lemme know how.
I have sorcery instead of saints or alchemy, though I might put in some kind of alchemy as well.
I am almost sure the menus in combat will not work. I call menus in combat already and they pop up after combat so it seems doubtful. If you get it working let me know.
It would be nice to do menus or conversation at any point. Right now it is maddening at times getting them to work together. I can't sem to call a conversation from a menu wihout a game crash...if anyone else has, lemme know how.
Seengs
Recruit
I would try to contribute as well... I stress the word TRY. I have never done any scripting, modeling, or anything like that. I might mess around with that modeling tutorial I just saw though, just to try and help.
To make things simpler...
Since it's been brought up that alchemy and divine stuff are the most difficult to implement, I think that a M&B mod that has everything Darklands does, EXCEPT the alchemy and priestly stuff, would still be great. It would not be as good, but it would still be great. Would that make the process substantially easier, or would the time it saved not be worth it's lack?
To make things simpler...
Since it's been brought up that alchemy and divine stuff are the most difficult to implement, I think that a M&B mod that has everything Darklands does, EXCEPT the alchemy and priestly stuff, would still be great. It would not be as good, but it would still be great. Would that make the process substantially easier, or would the time it saved not be worth it's lack?
well, Seengs... you got kind of a support group going... ("Hi, I am Seengs, and I've been modding for about 14 seconds..." (room chorus)"Hi, Seengs...")
you could...
1. start creating that german map (use a REAL elevation map as a base - get it more real than the original) in Thor's Map Editor
2. set up the towns in the right spot (using a 290x290 map, of course) in module_parties.py
3. start collecting weapons, armor and props permissions and eliminate those items that have no impact on the project, add in BRF Editor and module_items.py
4. set all the towns and props up (in the in m&b Game Editor) and
5. develop how the enemies will be armed and armored in the module_troops.py
and as thats going on, in the two months or so of you screwing with brf's, module_items.py and module_troops.py (those two files you can mess with to your hearts content and be comfortable with knowing what you're doing in about 2 hours), other people will toss you the other scripts, conversations, etc that will make it uniquley similar to Darklands (without a major commitment on their part).
and we can have some really wild scripts do some really crazy stuff. yeah. cool, baby...maw
you could...
1. start creating that german map (use a REAL elevation map as a base - get it more real than the original) in Thor's Map Editor
2. set up the towns in the right spot (using a 290x290 map, of course) in module_parties.py
3. start collecting weapons, armor and props permissions and eliminate those items that have no impact on the project, add in BRF Editor and module_items.py
4. set all the towns and props up (in the in m&b Game Editor) and
5. develop how the enemies will be armed and armored in the module_troops.py
and as thats going on, in the two months or so of you screwing with brf's, module_items.py and module_troops.py (those two files you can mess with to your hearts content and be comfortable with knowing what you're doing in about 2 hours), other people will toss you the other scripts, conversations, etc that will make it uniquley similar to Darklands (without a major commitment on their part).
and we can have some really wild scripts do some really crazy stuff. yeah. cool, baby...maw
fisheye
Grandmaster Knight
Seengs 说:
Yes, it would be substantially easier, and I agree that it would still be totally excellent.
I agree with what Maw says. A few possible changes to his suggested plan:
Step 2. "set up towns" - Implement the main german cities, but just by renaming the standard towns from vanilla. Do not add additional towns. Yet.
Do step 5 before step 4. It's a lot easier.
Step 4: "Set up scenes" - now as we all know, the cities in darklands are 100% game menus just using different backdrops. The towns in M&B are all modelled as tiny little hamlets, which really ruins the big city feeling. To achieve the same feel, we can modify the town game menu to be more like Darklands. Of course you would start simple first, using something basically identical to M&B. Then you can start adding menu options. For example, "Visit the Cathedral", which would set you in a scene with a nice Cathedral so you can talk to the monks, etc. The main thing I'm trying to say here is that you don't want to rush into modelling the whole damn city from scratch, which is a huge pain in the ass. You just want to model the scenes where something actually happens, e.g. the interiors of the shops, the church, the marketplace, the bank offices, the docks, the dark streets where you fight the ruffians, etc. All these scenes can be reused ad nauseum across the different cities. Basically you want to be UNLIKE M&B where the entire city (aka "town square") is one big scene, instead we break it all up into small scenes connected via game menus, just like Darklands. This will be both much easier and more Darklands-like.
Once you have the town template all set up and chugging, then you can add additional cities and towns across Germany.
good point, Fish.
i'd forgotten Darklands was very menu driven, and was looking through the lens of m&b.
if the developer of this mod didn't want to go through the initial hassle of designing cities, he could just use a menu interface upon town entry, and do all the scenes interor, and reduce the actual dev time - later, someone else (or a multitude of someones) could put together a town or hamlet allowing for expanded fun.
same for 'additional' towns.
it looks ta me that .802 MIGHT support different pics assigned to a menu (seeing the bg2 in a brf file). i'd love that kind of addressing so i hope it is... and it would dovetail nice into a more menu driven mod.
and you are exactly right in that by making it a menu-scene driven town/city/hamlet, you can give it the atmosphere of a really big city through written description. maw
i'd forgotten Darklands was very menu driven, and was looking through the lens of m&b.
if the developer of this mod didn't want to go through the initial hassle of designing cities, he could just use a menu interface upon town entry, and do all the scenes interor, and reduce the actual dev time - later, someone else (or a multitude of someones) could put together a town or hamlet allowing for expanded fun.
same for 'additional' towns.
it looks ta me that .802 MIGHT support different pics assigned to a menu (seeing the bg2 in a brf file). i'd love that kind of addressing so i hope it is... and it would dovetail nice into a more menu driven mod.
and you are exactly right in that by making it a menu-scene driven town/city/hamlet, you can give it the atmosphere of a really big city through written description. maw
Hellequin
Sergeant at Arms
Honestly, doing the cities modularly (a la Darklands) has a lot of little things going for it, too. For example, just as in Darklands, it would be almost trivial to set it up so that instead of peaceably hopping from (for instance) the 'secluded grove' to the 'docks' at night, you occasionally get jumped in 'an alley' in between. Just a matter of the menus.
Also, as a suggestion, implement one city a la Darklands. Do all your development in and around that one city. What with the Fuggers/Medici/Hanse, the wider selection of merchants than M&B, the secluded grove and other risky areas of town, there's a lot of potential content you could work on within that environment. Then, after that's basically working, you branch out and start ramifying (Univerity/no University; cathedral/church; docks/landlocked; governor/baron; price and quality variations in various item types) in order to add variety, as per Darklands.
If someone gets the rest of this actually gathering momentum, I'll work on the saints. Always loved that part anyway, and it would be a serious gain for the mod, and I'd been considering doing them all by themselves anyway, even without the rest of it. All I'd ask is that the rest of the mod give access to: (a) a single NPC priest, possibly later to ramify into a couple of different possibilities (the martial hospitaller, the fat Franciscan friar, the ascetic hermit) to give different playstyles which all have access to saints. And (b) churches where you go to pray, monasteries (sometimes to be linked to the church in this town, sometimes separate) where you go to study about saints, in the cities. Just make sure the locations and hiring opportunities exist; I'll do the game system, programmatic content and NPCs.
I wonder when Armagan will start dropping hints about the new module system...
Also, as a suggestion, implement one city a la Darklands. Do all your development in and around that one city. What with the Fuggers/Medici/Hanse, the wider selection of merchants than M&B, the secluded grove and other risky areas of town, there's a lot of potential content you could work on within that environment. Then, after that's basically working, you branch out and start ramifying (Univerity/no University; cathedral/church; docks/landlocked; governor/baron; price and quality variations in various item types) in order to add variety, as per Darklands.
If someone gets the rest of this actually gathering momentum, I'll work on the saints. Always loved that part anyway, and it would be a serious gain for the mod, and I'd been considering doing them all by themselves anyway, even without the rest of it. All I'd ask is that the rest of the mod give access to: (a) a single NPC priest, possibly later to ramify into a couple of different possibilities (the martial hospitaller, the fat Franciscan friar, the ascetic hermit) to give different playstyles which all have access to saints. And (b) churches where you go to pray, monasteries (sometimes to be linked to the church in this town, sometimes separate) where you go to study about saints, in the cities. Just make sure the locations and hiring opportunities exist; I'll do the game system, programmatic content and NPCs.
I wonder when Armagan will start dropping hints about the new module system...
fisheye
Grandmaster Knight
Hellequin speaks wisdom.
Well if anyone can make me a map of medieval Germany:
http://www.darklands.net/files/darklandsmap.jpg
Then I can do step 2, viz placing the towns from Native onto the map in the place of the major cities like Nurnberg, Leipzig, Frankfurt, etc.
P.S. I can also do the alchemy stuff... I don't think we'll get to it until about a year from now, by that time RPGmod will be released and we can use Yoshi's code.
EDIT: Here's a map-making tutorial (thanks Colt):
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,17026.0.html
Well if anyone can make me a map of medieval Germany:
http://www.darklands.net/files/darklandsmap.jpg
Then I can do step 2, viz placing the towns from Native onto the map in the place of the major cities like Nurnberg, Leipzig, Frankfurt, etc.
P.S. I can also do the alchemy stuff... I don't think we'll get to it until about a year from now, by that time RPGmod will be released and we can use Yoshi's code.
EDIT: Here's a map-making tutorial (thanks Colt):
http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,17026.0.html
Hellequin
Sergeant at Arms
The Darklands map proper is too huge, though. Maybe pick a subset of it, containing about as many cities as Native, and try to make just that map. The city-to-city distances would then be about what they are now, which (for the most part) is actually subjectively closer together than Darklands cities were.
Seengs
Recruit
What about making the map somewhat smaller, putting the larger towns in, and maybe manipulate the travelling speeds. Could party speeds be drastically lowered but kept proportional to those now? I don't understand anything about the manipulating of the game engine, so this may be an impossibility...
bryce777
Count
Kissaki 说:I never played Darklands. I could have, if I had used pre-made characters or loaded an old save, but for some reason I could never add new characters to a new party. Maybe I just had a buggy version, or I did something wrong. But I could not save the characters I created.
It works in a really confusing manner. Just play around with it and you will figure it out. Not sure how it works but I have had it bite me - you create a party and then they disappear...
