Star Wars Conquest Mod for M&B 1.x and M&B Warband
- 主题发起人 HokieBT
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HokieBT
Grandmaster Knight
excellent suggestion, this is a much better idea than making the horse transparent like I did. We have a dewback and kaadu model from before we added speeder bikes and then turned off the gallop animation. I was thinking they were now useless but would be good as scene props. I'll test it out, it may have to be a 'baby dewback' to fit in a horse stall, but it should still look very cool. thanksdaerdevil 说:
HokieBT
Grandmaster Knight
I've been thinking about this for a while, and I don't think I want to include actual star wars music in the next release. I own numerous Star Wars CD's, so while I have access to the music, its not right\legal to distribute it as part of a mod. However, I would like to have some better music in this mod, so have been thinking of a couple of concepts...
1) find fan-made star wars music? Here's a site that has some examples, I haven't had time to listen to many of them yet, so we'd have to try and narrow down which ones would fit. I'd also need to read further on this or other sites to see if we can use them, etc.
http://www.dockingbay101.com/fansongs/
2) find free or open-source sci-fi music that might fit well with the star wars universe. any suggestions?
3) create some original music for this mod. I have no musical skills, so somebody would have to volunteer for that job. Even if we played and re-recorded some of the original music that sounds like a better\safer concept that just including the actual CD, etc....
any other suggestions or comments? I have no clue about the legality of any of this, but I figure imitation (creating new models, music, fan made pictures) is much safer than using 'real' star wars music/models/pictures/etc.
1) find fan-made star wars music? Here's a site that has some examples, I haven't had time to listen to many of them yet, so we'd have to try and narrow down which ones would fit. I'd also need to read further on this or other sites to see if we can use them, etc.
http://www.dockingbay101.com/fansongs/
2) find free or open-source sci-fi music that might fit well with the star wars universe. any suggestions?
3) create some original music for this mod. I have no musical skills, so somebody would have to volunteer for that job. Even if we played and re-recorded some of the original music that sounds like a better\safer concept that just including the actual CD, etc....
any other suggestions or comments? I have no clue about the legality of any of this, but I figure imitation (creating new models, music, fan made pictures) is much safer than using 'real' star wars music/models/pictures/etc.
MaverickSoul
Recruit
=O, this mod is getting bigger!
cant wait for teh next update =D
I think rebel helmets will be nice
cant wait for teh next update =D
I think rebel helmets will be nice
patkelly
Recruit
Well, just so everyone's aware, I'm currently redoing all the companion dialogue. It's coming along nicely; while the characters aren't KOTOR-level or anything, I think they're as complete and as well-defined as the Mount and Blade original cast.
Anyway, as for the legality? Well, we're not on good grounds legally anyway. In order for us to legally use images, names, sounds, and designs that are owned by LucasFilm, we'd have to prove fair use. And that's not a winning bet The conditions for consideration for fair use are:
1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
#2 we lose on; Star Wars is as protected as intellectual property gets. #3 we lose on; we're pretty much taking the entirety of Lucas's universe wholesale, and it doesn't matter if we're using their original images/designs or making our own reproductions of them. #4 we lose on, actually, since it's pretty much precedent that our mod will be considered in direct competition with LucasArts' releases, and so we are diluting the market for Star Wars games in a small but real way by providing people with a non-LucasArts Star Wars game.
Our only legal hope, if they sent a cease and desist, would be under #1. Usually this involves claiming your work is 'transformative' instead of 'derivative,' meaning that your work is something substantially different from the original. Parodies are the most common example. However, that's not the case at all; our work is intended to be an emulation of the original. However, we are doing this entirely non-commercially, meaning there is no way that any of us could make any money on it in any way whatsoever. But then again, TaleWorlds is, and the cease and desist would be sent to them anyway. And it's likely that regardless of our case, a cease and desist from LucasArts would be enough to cause TW to scrub us.
But none of that matters, really. To the best of my knowledge, none have ever gone to court. Either a company throws out a cease and desist and the modders get scared and stop, or the company doesn't and the mod is made. Our best defense is that nobody particularly cares about us. There are thousands of fan-created mods for games that reappropriate intellectual property. Some get shot down by cease-and-desists, but most don't. When you get down to it, it's a very big ocean, and a handful of people making a mod for an indie game are a very small fish indeed.
But I can understand trying not to provoke them. Taking the time to make our own models and characters and sounds and such is, I have to think, a show of good faith that this is a private project for mostly personal enjoyment and not a slapdash attempt to "play Star Wars" without taking the effort to actually buy a LucasArts game.
If you're looking for good, public domain, scifi-ish background music, the 1918 orchestral suite "The Planets" by Gustav Holst is a classic, especially "Mars, the Bringer of War." Sound is a tricky one, though, because the music of John Williams is one of the things that most breathes life into the Star Wars brand.
Anyway, as for the legality? Well, we're not on good grounds legally anyway. In order for us to legally use images, names, sounds, and designs that are owned by LucasFilm, we'd have to prove fair use. And that's not a winning bet The conditions for consideration for fair use are:
1. the purpose and character of the use, including whether such use is of a commercial nature or is for nonprofit educational purposes;
2. the nature of the copyrighted work;
3. the amount and substantiality of the portion used in relation to the copyrighted work as a whole; and
4. the effect of the use upon the potential market for or value of the copyrighted work.
#2 we lose on; Star Wars is as protected as intellectual property gets. #3 we lose on; we're pretty much taking the entirety of Lucas's universe wholesale, and it doesn't matter if we're using their original images/designs or making our own reproductions of them. #4 we lose on, actually, since it's pretty much precedent that our mod will be considered in direct competition with LucasArts' releases, and so we are diluting the market for Star Wars games in a small but real way by providing people with a non-LucasArts Star Wars game.
Our only legal hope, if they sent a cease and desist, would be under #1. Usually this involves claiming your work is 'transformative' instead of 'derivative,' meaning that your work is something substantially different from the original. Parodies are the most common example. However, that's not the case at all; our work is intended to be an emulation of the original. However, we are doing this entirely non-commercially, meaning there is no way that any of us could make any money on it in any way whatsoever. But then again, TaleWorlds is, and the cease and desist would be sent to them anyway. And it's likely that regardless of our case, a cease and desist from LucasArts would be enough to cause TW to scrub us.
But none of that matters, really. To the best of my knowledge, none have ever gone to court. Either a company throws out a cease and desist and the modders get scared and stop, or the company doesn't and the mod is made. Our best defense is that nobody particularly cares about us. There are thousands of fan-created mods for games that reappropriate intellectual property. Some get shot down by cease-and-desists, but most don't. When you get down to it, it's a very big ocean, and a handful of people making a mod for an indie game are a very small fish indeed.
But I can understand trying not to provoke them. Taking the time to make our own models and characters and sounds and such is, I have to think, a show of good faith that this is a private project for mostly personal enjoyment and not a slapdash attempt to "play Star Wars" without taking the effort to actually buy a LucasArts game.
If you're looking for good, public domain, scifi-ish background music, the 1918 orchestral suite "The Planets" by Gustav Holst is a classic, especially "Mars, the Bringer of War." Sound is a tricky one, though, because the music of John Williams is one of the things that most breathes life into the Star Wars brand.
patkelly
Recruit
My vote's for kaadu (though honestly I did not know those even existed). The dewbacks are neat, but the kaadu look better to me in a way I can't quite explain. Maybe it's the fact that it's a baby dewback, I don't know.
The speeder bikes are good, but I can't shake the feeling that it looks like people are stabling their bikes on hay beds in front of troughs, and that is silly.
The speeder bikes are good, but I can't shake the feeling that it looks like people are stabling their bikes on hay beds in front of troughs, and that is silly.
MaverickSoul
Recruit
i think they all look neat, but ya the bikes look kinda funny
MartinF
Squire
you could make the music pack a separate optional download. I think you're more likely to get crap for that than for the mod itself. After all, music piracy is a big priority for the 'big companies' whereas people imitating their products for a fan mod with a very limited playerbase is not.
BTW on the subject of companions, perhaps the stats should be looked at as well? Right now they seem very generic and not in line with the hiring cost. I pay a lot of money for one guy to join me, who has pretty much the same stats as another guy who's cheap or free. And I like the native thing where some heroes are healers, others are engineers, etc. This could tie in with the dialog so you actually know beforehand who you're hiring.
BTW on the subject of companions, perhaps the stats should be looked at as well? Right now they seem very generic and not in line with the hiring cost. I pay a lot of money for one guy to join me, who has pretty much the same stats as another guy who's cheap or free. And I like the native thing where some heroes are healers, others are engineers, etc. This could tie in with the dialog so you actually know beforehand who you're hiring.
The Happy Stormtrooper
Sergeant Knight
MartinF 说:
Agreed. I'm not a follower of the Expanded Universe, so I can't offer any advice. At least I presume they're all from the EU - the only character I know is Kyle Katarn who's a soldier turned jedi. Loved the Jedi Knight games.
Now some random questions:
1. How do you take screenshots for M&B? The Print Screen generates only a black screen for me, and I'd like to post how my helmet selection come off in-game.
2. Will all the Speeder Bikes be textured? I know the Military ones are fine and resemble those from ROTJ, but a lot of the other ones look to be a flat colour over a speeder mesh.
3. If I were to make armour, would a simple OBJ and DDS file be sufficient material to send on to a rigger to work their magic with? I've got a bit more time off work and would like to have a crack at making some uniforms.
4. How about really upping the stat requirement to use lightsabers and Jedi stuff? Like 18 Agility (or multiple base stats if that's possible), so you don't just buy yourself the title after attacking a caravan. Would be much more satisfying to earn it, in my opinion.
MartinF
Squire
The Happy Stormtrooper 说:
1. I think the best way to take screenies is use a prog like fraps
2. I see a fine furute for you. In this future you're texturing speeders
3. From what Hokie told me, there's only one person who works on the mod who can rig armors and his time is pretty limited due to rl constraints. I've never tried it myself but I think for the normal human sized textures it's not too difficult to learn. Not too long ago someone released a tool to make this much easier so maybe it would be worth trying to figure out how to do this. There is a tut here by Yoshiboy which explains how to do it with 3Dmax. There is a tool/script for doing this with blender here. And the 'tool' to do it using Wings3D is here. If you want to mod more for MNB it seems like a good skill to have and it would help the SW mod out a lot!
4. I've been talking to Hokie about similar things. It would be cool to have the jedi stuff be a bit more 'special'. In the end of course, it's down to the player whether or not you want to use it but you'd have a bigger sense of accomplisment if you had to do something for it first. I think we talked about making it only available from a certain vendor and in order to buy from there you'd have to unlock the place first. I.e. finish a quest, defeat a jedi in combat, something like that. Same would apply to jedi type units. I thought it would also be good to keep the jedi and sith separate so you can't have both in the same army meaning you'd have to make a choice, probably dictated by whether you're supporting empire or rebel. I don't think this is really high on the priority list atm tho, but could def use some attention in the long run.
On a side note.. say.. you wouldn't feel like making some other SW related props and stuff, would you?
HokieBT
Grandmaster Knight
MartinF answered all these but I'll throw out a few additional comments.
1) There is built-in functionality in M&B to take screenshots by pressing CTRL+Insert and it saves it in your My Documents folder. However, this is a large BMP file, so I usually either convert it to a JPG or use a 3rd party program like MartinF mentioned.
2) First, I really can't model or texture much at all. But originally when I was the only person working on this mod I attempted to replace textures or re-texture existing models to make this mod. So I did textures for the basic speeder bikes, the FC-20 speeder, the imperial and rebel officer uniforms, force powers, lots of scene props, laser scope, advanced medpac, eyepieces, etc. Some that I found pictures for came out decent (jedi master robe, thermal detonators, training remote, etc) but the majority of them are pretty awful. Over the past few months people like TakiJap, Vector Dalon, and Geroj have been adding or improving a lot of these textures\models, but there is still more work to do. Although the speeder bikes really need an improved texture we have not touched those yet and I don't think we'll have time before the next release. However, if people want to help out, I have absolutely no problem if anybody thinks they can add or improve the model/texture or help with other types of things like sounds, dialogs, scene editing, etc, since we could use the help. Few comments on this:
a) we have done a lot of work that is not in the current release, so before starting on something you may want to send me a PM
b) performance will be a factor, so if somebody re-textures a speeder bike with a 2048x2048 texture that is too big, or if you create a new models with 2000 poly's that may be too much, etc. If its something that is only use in a limited basis than it may be fine, but something like the speeder bikes need to be lower-poly so that is why I am currently using different colored versions of the basic speeder and not the higher-poly military speeder for all faction troops. There are other options for higher-poly stuff like creating lower-poly LOD's (level of details) for the models, etc.
3) Yeah, armor needs to be rigged, rigging is a very sought after skill in the M&B community, and the people on our team who can do it have a limited amount of time. So the easiest options are learn to rig, re-texture existing armor, or use one of those auto-rig programs. I've heard the something like the Wings3D auto-rig program works well if the models are close, so if you wanted to export a native item and re-do the uv-mapping and then use that to re-rig it then it would probably work. TakiJap also created some jackets/vests models and intentionally did the uv-mapping so it would be easy to just modify the texture and not have to re-rig it, so if you check this thread you can see some examples, http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,57784.0.html but these models might work to create some new star wars armor.
4) MartinF summarized this well. Its not a super high-priority but I want to eventually try and switch it so they just don't appear in the weapon shop, etc. I also don't want to incredibly limit gameplay either since if the player wants to give everybody a lightsaber then that is their choice. So I could see something like a single quest you have to compete before you can access a force-sensitive merchant (or something like that), possibly adding some stat requirements, increasing the prices, etc, but not massively limiting them.
and as MartinF said, we can also use help modeling. One thing we've been trying to do is replace native scene props with star wars items of the same shape/size. For example, Geroj made a better torch so I just switched the torch model and this globally changed the torch in every scene and made the game a lot better. I'm doing this same concept with the horse in scenes, etc. So if you walk around town and see a model that looks too much like a native item (barrel, ladder, wheel, cart, log pile, fence, etc) we could use a similar size/shaped star wars model to globally change all scenes. We'll manually do scene editing for some parts (like the cantina) but this concept allows for quick changes, and these new model can be re-used later when we manually do scene editing.
1) There is built-in functionality in M&B to take screenshots by pressing CTRL+Insert and it saves it in your My Documents folder. However, this is a large BMP file, so I usually either convert it to a JPG or use a 3rd party program like MartinF mentioned.
2) First, I really can't model or texture much at all. But originally when I was the only person working on this mod I attempted to replace textures or re-texture existing models to make this mod. So I did textures for the basic speeder bikes, the FC-20 speeder, the imperial and rebel officer uniforms, force powers, lots of scene props, laser scope, advanced medpac, eyepieces, etc. Some that I found pictures for came out decent (jedi master robe, thermal detonators, training remote, etc) but the majority of them are pretty awful. Over the past few months people like TakiJap, Vector Dalon, and Geroj have been adding or improving a lot of these textures\models, but there is still more work to do. Although the speeder bikes really need an improved texture we have not touched those yet and I don't think we'll have time before the next release. However, if people want to help out, I have absolutely no problem if anybody thinks they can add or improve the model/texture or help with other types of things like sounds, dialogs, scene editing, etc, since we could use the help. Few comments on this:
a) we have done a lot of work that is not in the current release, so before starting on something you may want to send me a PM
b) performance will be a factor, so if somebody re-textures a speeder bike with a 2048x2048 texture that is too big, or if you create a new models with 2000 poly's that may be too much, etc. If its something that is only use in a limited basis than it may be fine, but something like the speeder bikes need to be lower-poly so that is why I am currently using different colored versions of the basic speeder and not the higher-poly military speeder for all faction troops. There are other options for higher-poly stuff like creating lower-poly LOD's (level of details) for the models, etc.
3) Yeah, armor needs to be rigged, rigging is a very sought after skill in the M&B community, and the people on our team who can do it have a limited amount of time. So the easiest options are learn to rig, re-texture existing armor, or use one of those auto-rig programs. I've heard the something like the Wings3D auto-rig program works well if the models are close, so if you wanted to export a native item and re-do the uv-mapping and then use that to re-rig it then it would probably work. TakiJap also created some jackets/vests models and intentionally did the uv-mapping so it would be easy to just modify the texture and not have to re-rig it, so if you check this thread you can see some examples, http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php/topic,57784.0.html but these models might work to create some new star wars armor.
4) MartinF summarized this well. Its not a super high-priority but I want to eventually try and switch it so they just don't appear in the weapon shop, etc. I also don't want to incredibly limit gameplay either since if the player wants to give everybody a lightsaber then that is their choice. So I could see something like a single quest you have to compete before you can access a force-sensitive merchant (or something like that), possibly adding some stat requirements, increasing the prices, etc, but not massively limiting them.
and as MartinF said, we can also use help modeling. One thing we've been trying to do is replace native scene props with star wars items of the same shape/size. For example, Geroj made a better torch so I just switched the torch model and this globally changed the torch in every scene and made the game a lot better. I'm doing this same concept with the horse in scenes, etc. So if you walk around town and see a model that looks too much like a native item (barrel, ladder, wheel, cart, log pile, fence, etc) we could use a similar size/shaped star wars model to globally change all scenes. We'll manually do scene editing for some parts (like the cantina) but this concept allows for quick changes, and these new model can be re-used later when we manually do scene editing.
The Happy Stormtrooper
Sergeant Knight
Depends on the stuff you want. Obviously my main interest lays in attire, but I'd probably try anything.
1. I already had Fraps and completely forgot about it. Cheers. Here's the helmets in the game environment. I'm especially pleased with how the stormtrooper came out, considering the white texture was completely flat (no shading at all).
2. Can't say I have a massive love for texturing, but I'll give it a shot if someone wants to send me the speeder mesh. I don't currently have any mods installed since I brilliantly monged them all up. Don't ask.
3. Well, I finally got my head around that program you mentioned. It created an ugly as hell glitchy piece of ****, but it was a step up from the invisible man I'd been producing. I'll work on rigging some more then volunteer my services if I get to be any good.
EDIT: My God I'm slow to post.
1. I already had Fraps and completely forgot about it. Cheers. Here's the helmets in the game environment. I'm especially pleased with how the stormtrooper came out, considering the white texture was completely flat (no shading at all).
2. Can't say I have a massive love for texturing, but I'll give it a shot if someone wants to send me the speeder mesh. I don't currently have any mods installed since I brilliantly monged them all up. Don't ask.
3. Well, I finally got my head around that program you mentioned. It created an ugly as hell glitchy piece of ****, but it was a step up from the invisible man I'd been producing. I'll work on rigging some more then volunteer my services if I get to be any good.
EDIT: My God I'm slow to post.
daerdevil
Veteran
patkelly 说:
Right on target! Don't feel bad, I'm a bit of a Star Wars nerd and never new about Kaadu's either, but they look perfect for the horse replacements. The only other thing, would be if it's possible to include both kaadus and mini-dewbacks, but I'm guessing the answer is no--so stick w/ Kaadus over the rest.
While we're talking of cease-and-desists, I'm tempted to issue one for screenshots, as they're making me impatient for the next iteration
Simply great looking stuffThat Death Star Trooper helm is truly awesome. Reminds me of my favorite action figure "the Death Squad Commander".
HokieBT
Grandmaster Knight
stormtrooper - PM sent with a link to download the speeder OBJ
daerdevil - right now I'm just globally replacing scene props, so I believe the "practice_horse" is used for the horse models in all scenes, so I think we can only have one model. I've switched that to the kaadu, but it is possible to define different models depending on the imodbits for items, so I can see if I can use the dewback for a 'heavy' practice horse or something like that... no clue if imodbits actually work as scene props tho....
daerdevil - right now I'm just globally replacing scene props, so I believe the "practice_horse" is used for the horse models in all scenes, so I think we can only have one model. I've switched that to the kaadu, but it is possible to define different models depending on the imodbits for items, so I can see if I can use the dewback for a 'heavy' practice horse or something like that... no clue if imodbits actually work as scene props tho....
patkelly
Recruit
MartinF 说:
Already on it. I've got new dialogue for each of 'em, and their stats will match their dialogue. Cost adjustment will come a bit later, but really even in Native the cost was kind of screwy. I mean, Ymira and Jeremus were probably the most useful, and they were free. Matheld, on the other hand, was virtually useless (and conflicted with Ymira), but tended to be pricy.
I strongly agree with an 18-agi minimum on lightsabers, or perhaps something like Power Throw 5, with Power Throw renamed "force affinity." While I think the "unlockable" vendor is a great idea, even then you shouldn't be able to buy up dozens of sabers and hand them out to each of your companions. After all, it's not like Obi-Wan gave Chewie and Han Solo lightsabers once Luke started his training. I'm not sure if you can put non-strength limits on melee weapons, but heck, even if you can't do that easily, an absurdly high strength requirement would at least make it so you had to specialize a character before they got a lightsaber.
Keeping Jedi and Sith separate is a good idea. I think The Eagle and the Radiant Cross is a good template to follow, where you had to join up with a kingdom to get their best units, and could only recruit them from cities.
MartinF
Squire
I think what Hokie was saying is that he doesnt want to limit gameplay too much for the player. So if you want to load up your companions with sith armor and green jedi lightsabers and have them wear a christmas hat, that's your problem.
While I agree with that to a certain extent, I think a lot of enjoyment from gaming also comes from accomplishments, as long as they're meaningful and if the game feels like it makes sense, it'll be more fun to play. So somewhere in the middle would probably be a good place to end up.
Stuff like companion dialog will do a great deal to bring the mod alive. Between that, the new models and some of the gameplay features and tweaks we'll be adding, the next release should already be a leap forward and there are plenty more ideas on the shelf
While I agree with that to a certain extent, I think a lot of enjoyment from gaming also comes from accomplishments, as long as they're meaningful and if the game feels like it makes sense, it'll be more fun to play. So somewhere in the middle would probably be a good place to end up.
Stuff like companion dialog will do a great deal to bring the mod alive. Between that, the new models and some of the gameplay features and tweaks we'll be adding, the next release should already be a leap forward and there are plenty more ideas on the shelf
