Mirabelle 说:
No thanks. Maybe in mods but not in native.
-
If you are reporting a bug, please head over to our Technical Support section for Bannerlord.
Stamina/fatigue system for horses in Bannerlord
- 主题发起人 Mirabelle
- 开始时间
正在查看此主题的用户
No thanks. Maybe in mods but not in native.
BNS Marko 说:
That's not entirely true. Especially when considering cavalry. It is very well documented fact, that many a cavalry charge failed because riders made mistake to start galloping too early, blowing their horses in the process. Cavalry charges were not conducted over kilometers of terrain, they were conducted over dozens or hundreds of meters, so fully within scale of MB combat, both in terms of time and distances.
Problem is that MB combat doesn't have tactical level in which something like that would make sense. By and large, MB combat doesn't have tactical level at all -in that sense I agree with you (as you say, MB combat are not battles, they are chaotic skirmishes).
If I remember correctly, the Viking Conquest expansion did have a stamina bar. It also had weapons that would break over the course of the fight. Speaking for myself, both of these features were obnoxious, and they were just a couple of the number of reasons I never got into that expansion.
The stamina meter meant that units would become effectively worthless as battles go on. Without a method of telling specific units to retreat, it forced the player into an expensive battle of attrition that usually didn't favor them. What it was supposed to the do was give light infantry a purpose, as it was cheaper, faster, and supposedly as effective as heavy infantry in a number of roles. However.
The equipment breaking meant your shield wall would degrade over time. It's not uncommon for soldiers to go through a number of clashes and end up fighting exhausted and unarmed on the front line. Light infantry were hit the worst of all because of their reliance on throwing weapons and spears.
Viking Conquest built a lot of it's armies and mechanics around these two systems, and I still don't think it worked. I don't really see how having half of a designed system would improve matters.
The stamina meter meant that units would become effectively worthless as battles go on. Without a method of telling specific units to retreat, it forced the player into an expensive battle of attrition that usually didn't favor them. What it was supposed to the do was give light infantry a purpose, as it was cheaper, faster, and supposedly as effective as heavy infantry in a number of roles. However.
The equipment breaking meant your shield wall would degrade over time. It's not uncommon for soldiers to go through a number of clashes and end up fighting exhausted and unarmed on the front line. Light infantry were hit the worst of all because of their reliance on throwing weapons and spears.
Viking Conquest built a lot of it's armies and mechanics around these two systems, and I still don't think it worked. I don't really see how having half of a designed system would improve matters.
hruza 说:
That has very little to do with stamina and much more to do with formations breaking up if they charge for more than a few metres. Horses all run at different speeds and at a gallop it is impossible to keep together, meaning the riders at the front are too scared to commit to the charge and it fails. Remember that it is just as much the fault of the riders themselves for pulling back their horses when they get scared, even though it's not them who are getting tired.
Skip to 1:40:35. While this film isn't completely realistic and is set in a period where cavalry have a different role, there are still real cavalrymen riding in a real large formation which is going to be the same regardless. There is a first wide shot where they are cantering along man-made fields (literally, since the battlefield was ploughed and dug up for months prior) with no obstacles and they keep a relatively straight formation, but the moment they come across two small bushes, still at a canter mind you, the formation is completely broken up and is more like a series of disarrayed columns.
You could probably do something like this in bannerlord, but it would require you to have tight cavalry formations that can only do real damage if they all arrive at once, unlike in warband where even a single horseman can smash into infantry and feel no compulsion to get the hell out of there.
What I would much prefer is a good morale system since that doesn't reward the player for camping or doing nothing. If your men keep winning their fights I see no reason why the game should force them to get debuffed, while I definitely think this should be the case if you let your men get flanked or charge them into unwinnable fights.
NUQAR'S Kentucky "Nuqar" James XXL 说:
No, it actually did have to do with "stamina":
"Chlapowski writes: We could see confusion breaking out in the Spanish army. They tried only one charge. Some regiment which looked like black hussars, which I had never seen before, drew particular attention to themselves. Their attack failed, and was doomed from the start as they had begun to gallop at 1,000 paces and so were exhausted by the time they had covered half this distance."
"Experience has shown that the best distance from the enemy to begin the gallop, is between 200 and 50 paces. This gradual increase of speed is very important, to prevent the horses from being completely blown on reaching the enemy."
Cavalry Tactics and Combat during the Napoleonic Wars
That's not to say that inability to keep formation for too long when galloping wasn't problem as well.
NUQAR'S Kentucky "Nuqar" James XXL 说:
It would require combat to be more tactical and more realistic, with much bigger emphasis on formations. Battles were not series of duels between individual soldiers, they were fights between formations of men and those are two very different things. In MB battles are series of duels between individual soldiers and even if they are nominally in the formation they still act as individual duelists rather then part of the formation. Which is why things like stamina doesn't combine well with MB combat.
Which is to large extend true also for you next point about morale:
NUQAR'S Kentucky "Nuqar" James XXL 说:
Problem here is again, that when men fight in a formation, formation have morale of it's own which is more then just plain sum of morale of individual soldiers of that formation. It's a situation similar to an animals in the herd. When in herd, individual animals acts differently then when alone. They act in a ways that may be irrational from the purely individual point of view. Moreover human "herds" such a battle formations also had commanders and they too had morale which played a role. Confident experienced commander would have been able to keep even inexperienced men in combat longer then incompetent and hesitant could experienced men.
MB combat is very arcadish and with little realism or resemblance of real combat. It doesn't have layers of complexity that would allow for implementing things like stamina in a way that would give results we might expect from it.
Unfortunately making MB combat less arcadish and more realistic would probably not meet with positive reaction from lot of players, because battles would become less bloody and less dynamic and less frantic. It would became impossible to play battles by mindlessly hacking, slashing and running over everything in player's path. And for most players that's exactly what they expect.
I for one am all for adding more realism in to the MB, but it have to be done systematically and with corresponding work on the AI. So in this case less is more. Let's first teach MB to actually start fighting in formations and use some simple tactic. Or to finally start using their polearms for goodness sake. After all due to difficulties in communication, tactics of ancient battles wasn't that complex. Simply because lack of communication did not allow commanders to execute complex manures so keeping things simple would in this case be also realistic (left wing, right wing, center, attack, defend, withdraw, etc...). Then we can see if we can add things like stamina in to the mix.
No, I've never actually played Mount&Blade.
Horse archers are a very, very small part of all the troops available out there. Once again, even the battles where you do have horse archers don't last longer than 5 - 10 minutes. Is this enough for horses to get exhausted? I don't really know the answer to that question but I think stamina is an unnecessary abstraction in this game.
Horse archers are a very, very small part of all the troops available out there. Once again, even the battles where you do have horse archers don't last longer than 5 - 10 minutes. Is this enough for horses to get exhausted? I don't really know the answer to that question but I think stamina is an unnecessary abstraction in this game.
Right, in medieval battles knights/riders typically bring with them 2-3 horses, so they can go back to the camp and swap for a fresh horse once they are tired.
You just can't do that in a M&B game without it being an absolute slug and annoying.
While you command you can't afford to just ride back to camp, wherever that is, unmount and pick another horse. You got to be in the midst of the fighting, or at least close enough to have a constant view of what's going on.
As for troops, I can see no benefits of it either -- if lower stamina means lower combat effectiveness, why in the world would I want to use them? I'd sit on my ass until the enemy comes. All this would do is encourage camping.
Aesthetics are good, fun mechanics are good, bad mechanics are just bad and should stay out of a game.
You just can't do that in a M&B game without it being an absolute slug and annoying.
While you command you can't afford to just ride back to camp, wherever that is, unmount and pick another horse. You got to be in the midst of the fighting, or at least close enough to have a constant view of what's going on.
As for troops, I can see no benefits of it either -- if lower stamina means lower combat effectiveness, why in the world would I want to use them? I'd sit on my ass until the enemy comes. All this would do is encourage camping.
Aesthetics are good, fun mechanics are good, bad mechanics are just bad and should stay out of a game.
Everyone seems to be assuming the stamina system would mean that just moving would deplete stamina, when it doesn't need to. You could make it so that only when galloping at full speed stamina was consumed, and if you're going a bit slower than that it doesn't and even helps recovering. That way you could navigate through the battlefield quite easily, but would also have to manage your speed to do it and save your full speed for actual charges or chasing down other cavalry.
That would be fine but currently you can't control the speed of your troops and I don't see any way of doing that which wouldn't make it a pain to control.
I think this stamina system would help preventing endless harrassing from cavalry, especially the archer ones.
Back in the day when I played a lot of native Warband, very often I got into very long and pointless battles against Khergit in which I had no option other than wait for them to get out of ammunition and engage in close quarters.
I think the game should punish troops for moving too much (both mounted and unmounted). This is where this stamina system would fit.
No need to gauge the speed of your formations, just add a little bar that starts depleting if you abuse their movement, making you think twice before start circling your enemies.
If you're afraid of getting "standing still will be rewarded" thing, then just balance the stamina system to last for at least for "X" minutes that represents a regular straight forward battle without depleting, so it will be decisive only if the battle takes too long, rewarding the wiser commanders that save energy for the right moment in this kind of battle and are able to tell when to unleash all the power of their armies.
This, in my understanding, is both realistic and fun tactical gameplay.
Back in the day when I played a lot of native Warband, very often I got into very long and pointless battles against Khergit in which I had no option other than wait for them to get out of ammunition and engage in close quarters.
I think the game should punish troops for moving too much (both mounted and unmounted). This is where this stamina system would fit.
No need to gauge the speed of your formations, just add a little bar that starts depleting if you abuse their movement, making you think twice before start circling your enemies.
If you're afraid of getting "standing still will be rewarded" thing, then just balance the stamina system to last for at least for "X" minutes that represents a regular straight forward battle without depleting, so it will be decisive only if the battle takes too long, rewarding the wiser commanders that save energy for the right moment in this kind of battle and are able to tell when to unleash all the power of their armies.
This, in my understanding, is both realistic and fun tactical gameplay.
I can't understand anyone's concept of stamina system.
stamina is not an energy bar, but of explicable power over a period of time.
The difference between the two is that the first, once it is consumed, does not allow us to follow any other action, while the second is only made to reload in order to reuse the power that the bar allows us to express.
So the point is: when to use that power?
Some say that you can't control the speed of horses, but it's not entirely true.
The charge is nothing but an order that tells the troops to go towards the enemy at the maximum speed possible.
Conversely, the "follow me" command means that the speed of the group is the same as that of our character.
If the consumption of the stamina is related to the speed of the animal then it is enough to assign a minimum value for which one starts to consume the stamina, for example at 70% of the maximum speed, and finally to tie the speed with which it is consumed at the same speed, with direct proportionality.
So the "follow me" command allows you to use both modes, namely consumption and non-consumption, since we choose the average speed of the group, which can be above or below the threshold, while the "charge" command he orders to go at maximum speed and therefore consumes stamina.
Once the stamina has been consumed, the horses simply cannot go beyond the minimum threshold (we have assumed 70% of the maximum speed for example).
To recharge the stamina you have to go below the threshold and recharge as quickly as you go.
The thresholds, consumption and top-up speeds are the discretion of the developers and are linked to the balance of the game.
We could also consider the slope of the land for the calculation of the consumption of the bar.
And maybe, introduce 2 bars.
One for our PG and a second bar for the stamina of a group of units (each group of units will have its own bar)
This avoids the problem of disassembly of the formations due to the different speeds of the units due to the fact that some have an empty bar and others do not.
stamina is not an energy bar, but of explicable power over a period of time.
The difference between the two is that the first, once it is consumed, does not allow us to follow any other action, while the second is only made to reload in order to reuse the power that the bar allows us to express.
So the point is: when to use that power?
Some say that you can't control the speed of horses, but it's not entirely true.
The charge is nothing but an order that tells the troops to go towards the enemy at the maximum speed possible.
Conversely, the "follow me" command means that the speed of the group is the same as that of our character.
If the consumption of the stamina is related to the speed of the animal then it is enough to assign a minimum value for which one starts to consume the stamina, for example at 70% of the maximum speed, and finally to tie the speed with which it is consumed at the same speed, with direct proportionality.
So the "follow me" command allows you to use both modes, namely consumption and non-consumption, since we choose the average speed of the group, which can be above or below the threshold, while the "charge" command he orders to go at maximum speed and therefore consumes stamina.
Once the stamina has been consumed, the horses simply cannot go beyond the minimum threshold (we have assumed 70% of the maximum speed for example).
To recharge the stamina you have to go below the threshold and recharge as quickly as you go.
The thresholds, consumption and top-up speeds are the discretion of the developers and are linked to the balance of the game.
We could also consider the slope of the land for the calculation of the consumption of the bar.
And maybe, introduce 2 bars.
One for our PG and a second bar for the stamina of a group of units (each group of units will have its own bar)
This avoids the problem of disassembly of the formations due to the different speeds of the units due to the fact that some have an empty bar and others do not.
i'm a fan of realism
in future games, not bannerlord, i would like to see a stamina for everything
all of us have experienced the wrong kinda of stamina in other games like skyrim, fallout, darksouls and a lot of other games
but it was the wrong kinda of stamina for realism, it was built for rpg.
a solid realistic stamina system is a good thing, it's gives a penalty for full armored knights with great swords & heavy lance & heavy shield
realism is fun if it was built right, u won't be tired after few swings, no u could fight & fight for a good time then take a brake.
actually my points stands very well the lengthier are the battles,
and that's related to the soldiers count & battlefield size
in future games, not bannerlord, i would like to see a stamina for everything
all of us have experienced the wrong kinda of stamina in other games like skyrim, fallout, darksouls and a lot of other games
but it was the wrong kinda of stamina for realism, it was built for rpg.
a solid realistic stamina system is a good thing, it's gives a penalty for full armored knights with great swords & heavy lance & heavy shield
realism is fun if it was built right, u won't be tired after few swings, no u could fight & fight for a good time then take a brake.
actually my points stands very well the lengthier are the battles,
and that's related to the soldiers count & battlefield size
Armoured horse can run for thirty minutes,i think so,so realism for horses in battle-not stamina,but if you drived your horse fast on map-on location it be tired.
