Spencer Reating Rifle feels a bit powerful.

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Nocturno

Squire
Yes, indeed.
Am with you 101% on this  :cool:

though "absurdly" i would say rather not, as was one-of-its-kind -at least for a time-
and gave way to that wonderful mechanism that is the Mauser 98
 

DrCroccer

Regular
Nocturno said:
Yes, indeed.
Am with you 101% on this  :cool:

though "absurdly" i would say rather not, as was one-of-its-kind -at least for a time-
and gave way to that wonderful mechanism that is the Mauser 98
It wasn't the first of it's kind. The Dreyse Nadelgewehr existed a decade before the Greene was invented, and the Chassepot was invented in 1866. Both of which were far more common.
 

Nocturno

Squire
If you read well, as i cant edit your posts,
says one of its kind, not first,
and just look at the action to notice was one of its kind,
but as were american weapons @ that time the main concern, ( read the board )
i would say that, yes, indeed, first for America, and i said for a time,
and it was.


Cheers

Addenda

from Curt-Heinrich Schmidt, 2004
"M1857 Greene bolt action rifle...
Although Greene's patent was the first bolt-action arm kind of, sort of, "adopted" by the US, the design is basically the same as Nicholas Dryse's 1838 and adopted by the Prussians in 1841.
Its major difference(s) from Dreyse's was that the Greene was worked/operated by pushing a release button on the tang, which allowed the bolt to be pulled up and to the rear to expose the chamber for the cartridge.
Two bullets at once were used in an unique arrangement.
A Minie type bullet was loaded, and the bolt was pushed forward passsed its normal position, where a rod seated the bullet forward in the chamber. The bolt was then drawn rearward again where the unique Greene combustible cartridge (with the bullet in the rear of the charge) was inserted into the receiver. The bolt was then pushed forward again, this time down and to the right to close the breech.
To fire, a percussion cap was placed on a cone beneath the receiver, a "ring hammer" (forward of the trigger guard bow) cocked with the index finger, and then the regular trigger squeezed.
That caused the gun powder in the reat to fire the forward seated bullet, with a bullet at the rear acting as a gas check. The powder in the next round, once inserted, then fired that bullet, it leaving its rearward bullet behind. And so on.

And yes, the Greene used the same oval bore rifling system invented by Charles Lancaster in the 1830's (which looks oval and smooth the muzzle).

During the CW, a total of 900 Greene rifles were purchased at $37.00 each along with 173,760 special Greene cartridges. Serial numbers are known over the 3500 range, so it is believed some 4,000 were made- made at the A. H. Waters Armory in Millbury, Mass. and believed purchased by individual states rather than the Federal government.
Appearently, their only recorded use was at Antietam. "

 

Kitfux

Veteran
Just stumbled upon the fact that there were two early model Spencer repeaters for .44 and .38 rimfire cartridges. .44 carbine (7 shot) and .38 rifle (9 shot), supposedly more lightweight compared to the "big" Spencers. Anyone have a clue as to how many of those were manufactured and how much worse the performance would have been compared to the 56-56 models? The 9 shot model might make for a nice addition to the 1866 arsenal  :smile:
 

Nocturno

Squire
i got this from
Christopher Spencer’s Horizontal Shot Tower
By Stephen F. Blancard


"Spencer’s first model was believed to have been completed in 1859. His friend R.S. Lawrence, of the firm of Robbins and Lawrence were early contractors of Sharps rifles and carbines. So it is not surprising that some lock parts with interchange with the Sharps. Spencer’s first arms were in .36 and .44 rimfire. These used a smaller frame than the later military models. Spencer obtained his first patent on March 6, 1860. A second patent issued July 29, 1862 contained several improvements to the original design."

"Initially rifles were issued to the cavalry. But the shorter carbine soon proved its superiority for mounted troops. From Jan. 1, 1861 to June 30, 1866 the Federal government purchased 94,196 carbines, 13,171 rifles and more than 58,000,000 cartridges. Spencer was chambered for the No. 56 Spencer rimfire cartridge, also called the .56-56 Spencer. Rifles had a 30” round barrel, full forend retained with three iron bands. About 700 rifles were ordered by the Navy and made to take the sword bayonet. Spencer is though to have actually made about 1,000 on this production run. Probably selling the remaining 300 to the public. All other rifles procured by the government from Spencer were made to take the socket bayonet. The wartime Spencer carbine had a 22” barrel. Approximately 50,000 war model carbines were produced. By the end of the war the Spencer carbine had pretty well established itself as the best arm suited for cavalry use.

After the war, Springfield Armory altered approximately 11,000 war model carbines. The barrels had liners installed to accept the new .50 cal. cartridge. A device know as the “Stabler Cut Off” was added which enabled the gun to be used as a single shot, keeping the magazine in reserve.

In 1865 Spencer came out with a new version appropriately called the Model 1865. This was essentially the same as the war model, except that it was chambered for the new .56-50 cartridge. Production of this model was about 23,000 pieces of which about half are fitted with the Stabler Cut Off.  The Model 1865 was also made under contract by the Burnside Rifle Company. Burnside production was approximately 34,000 carbines.

In 1871 Springfield Armory altered 1,108 Burnside made Spencer carbines to infantry rifles. These had their barrels replaced with 32 ½” round barrels chambered for the .56-50 cartridge.

A relatively small number of sporting rifles were made. Some were made on the military action. But others were made using a smaller, scaled down receiver. These were occasionally chambered for the .56-46 Spencer rimfire cartridge."

---------------------------------------------------------​

Spencer's Repeaters in the Civil War
by A.M.Beck ---> here http://www.rarewinchesters.com/articles/art_spencercivilwar.shtml

"While these are the two common calibers of Spencer firearms, other chamberings exist. A few very rare and valuable sporting rifles were produced just after the Civil War, mostly from condemned parts.  The greater number of these used a bottlenecked 44 caliber cartridge based on the 56-52 case.  There are also a very few early prototypes in various small caliber chamberings, particularly 38 and 46 straight."

 

Kitfux

Veteran
Nocturno said:
"Spencer’s first model was believed to have been completed in 1859. His friend R.S. Lawrence, of the firm of Robbins and Lawrence were early contractors of Sharps rifles and carbines. So it is not surprising that some lock parts with interchange with the Sharps. Spencer’s first arms were in .36 and .44 rimfire. These used a smaller frame than the later military models. Spencer obtained his first patent on March 6, 1860. A second patent issued July 29, 1862 contained several improvements to the original design."
That's as far as I got myself, but this:
"While these are the two common calibers of Spencer firearms, other chamberings exist. A few very rare and valuable sporting rifles were produced just after the Civil War, mostly from condemned parts.  The greater number of these used a bottlenecked 44 caliber cartridge based on the 56-52 case.  There are also a very few early prototypes in various small caliber chamberings, particularly 38 and 46 straight."
seems to refer to yet another batch, or is it referring to the same models as the first article  :?:
"Early prototype" would indicate something like single digit numbers, wouldn't it?

Another weird, but moderately popular repeater (>1000 production number)
Porter Revolving Turret Rifle ("A very advanced weapon for its time, and a competitor to the Colt Revolving Rifle, many were used during the Westward Migration."):
porterctr.jpg

 

Nocturno

Squire
Check these beauties  :razz:

Jarre Patent self-cocking six barreled 'harmonica pistol', NO. 360, circa 1873

lot479.jpg



Jarre harmonica pistol, 9 pinfire cartridges in 9mm

cub268_z_f1_h-tfb.jpg


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and with speedloaders !  :shock:

Jarre-474.JPG




Six-shot-volley-pistol "one hammer releases all six shots", cal. circa .34 percussion, during the 1850 - 1860s period.

6.JPG


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Deleaxhe  knuckle duster revolver with folding dirk and square frame, caliber 7mm pin fire

Deleaxhe-557.jpg



French Guycot Chain Rifle, 80 rounds of centerfire cartridges

"Manufactured circa 1878, this unusual and rare rifle features a chain housed in the frame and stock which holds 80 rounds of centerfire cartridges. The "endless chain" has carrying cups that hold the rounds. Once loaded the rifle can be fired as fast as the trigger can be pulled. The belt is revolved until a chamber (or cup) faces the barrel. At the same time a long firing pin is retracted. An inner barrel is drawn back through the heavy outer barrel until it covers the bullet end of the cartridge. When the long drag on the trigger end, the final pressure releases the needle like firing pin, which drives through a small opening in the base of the cup detonating the cartridge primer. The rifle fires a lead conical bullet which is hollowed out to accommodate the powder"

cub362_c_f2_l-tfb.jpg


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Meigs Sliding Guard Action Repeating Carbine

"Patented by Captain Josiah Meigs in 1866, this carbine is fitted with a unique action which provided a level of firepower virtually unknown in the era, with a potential rate of fire of nearly 160 rounds per minute, as compared to the 200 rounds per minute of the Model 1861 Gatling Gun. Blade front and flip-up adjustable rear sights, with no visible makers marks. The buttstock of the arm consists of a buttplate and carved walnut cheekpiece fitted to the 50-round tube magazine, which contains a replaceable 5-track rotating frame with spacers for 10 rounds per track. These frames could be preloaded, cutting down reload times substantially. Mounted on a rail between a pair of mortised tracks is the trigger guard assembly, which has a checkered firing trigger and a smooth long release trigger, and is reciprocated back and forth to rotate the magazine frame and move the breechblock, which extends up out of the frame to eject spent cartridges, Full length forearm with raised decorative carving and cord wrap, leaf pattern raised carving on the cheekpiece and nickel finished brass buttplate."

cub505_k_cu1_l_1-tfb-tm.jpg


cub505_c_f2_l_1-tfb.jpg


and the "Kalthoff repeater, which was a type of repeating firearm that appeared in the seventeenth century and remained unmatched in its fire rate until the mid-nineteenth century. As its inventor is unknown, it is named after a family of gunsmiths that has come to be associated with the design. The Kalthoff had two magazines, one for powder and one for balls (some had a third for priming powder)."

Failed to find any pic from it  :mad:
 

HunterAlpha1

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SVC
in the Louis L'Amour novel Jubal Sackett, Jubal has a pair of pistols that can fire 12 times without reloading.  to reload you point the barrel at the ground and move a lever.  can't remember the name of the pistols, but if you're interested you can probably find a copy at Barnes & Noble, or at your local library.
 

Kitteh

Squire
HunterAlpha1 said:
in the Louis L'Amour novel Jubal Sackett, Jubal has a pair of pistols that can fire 12 times without reloading.  to reload you point the barrel at the ground and move a lever.  can't remember the name of the pistols, but if you're interested you can probably find a copy at Barnes & Noble, or at your local library.
Walch?
 

Nocturno

Squire
Are you talking about that pair of the Spanish made  :?: repeating flintlock pistols ?

"Jesus H. Christ... are you crazy boy??"
Timmons on Dance with Wolves

naaa, actually thought could be some Lorenzoni system flintlock gun

Some guy modeled here

3459ds2.jpg


thread can be seen here:

http://forums.taleworlds.com/index.php?topic=16955.65



A 17th century Italian magazin gun, system Lorenzoni, 28 shots here...

182681_detail6_max.jpg


182681_detail5_max.jpg




Another Lorenzoni system gun, Turkish Flintlock Carbine 1750 Silver Inlay,  open

pix730464187.jpg


pix730463593.jpg



A nine-shot flintlock repeating magazne pistol on the Lorenzoni principle, by H.W. Mortimer & Co., London. Circa 1799-1806

d4833569x.jpg



German pistols on Lorenzoni system by Wetschgi, Ausgurg, early 18th Century

d4833534x.jpg




Yeah, a novel but can be taken from there, now, about reloading....  :roll:
 
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