Spears are weak.

[GG Cannon]

This is a feedback towards both Single and Multiplayer.

Spears in the game are currently all considerable short to at most medium spears, both due to their lengths and improper way of holding and placement on the characters hand.
They also possess too little damage and besides than on horseback, they aren't really as effective as they should actually be.

At times, when fighting someone with a sword, it feels like you both have about the same reach, when even a short spear should outreach a long sword most of the time.
That is precisely why spearmen footwork is entirely directed to keeping a distance and swordsmen footwork is directed to closing in.

A true long spear should be about twice the size of the current longest spear in the game. (Image examples)

You can see that a long spear, at times, can be almost twice the size of a person.

And cavalry trained to be able to hold with one hand at between the half mark to 3/4 mark to the back of the pole, which would leave almost 1 to 1 and a half human bodies of length remaining.

Even for ground melee infantry, spears were mostly held closer to the back.

And lastly, comes the matter of couch lancing, which mostly was held even closer to the back of the pole, leaving almost the whole of the spear's length to the front.
You can clearly see this through jousting and how a joust lance looks like.

Their damage also needs to be upped quite a bit. Even with an armor or a helmet, the minimum damage that should be registered should be about 10 or so, as spears easily penetrated or at least dented armor and shield.
As it currently is, at times, you can strike with a lance and see it cause 3 or even 1 of damage, so not only are we losing length through improper technique, its damage is too low.

I ask the dev team to truly consider taking the time to fix the current state of spears and couch lancing in the game.


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deGoucan Scrolls Index

 

[panxo_dakilla]

Good post. Bumperino

 

[hsngrms]

I don't like spears in this game because they are really week except as you said when couch lancing. I hate when they gave me a lance in Arena Tournament, taking ages to kill all without dying. (I'm goot at athletics, my tactic is constantly circling around enemy and hitting it while not getting any hit, best to do with sword ofc because of being able to swing it.)

Examples are good btw. Hope this can light up something in devs' minds.

 

[PoonSlayer666]

I disagree. Longer spears are unwieldy due to something called torque. Also every spear I've used is capable of one hitting anyone if I hit them in the face, regardless of armor. Piercing damage seems to do a lot even to mail armor (spears can't pierce mail). Spears are the only weapon that can be used over other infantry effectively. In my mind I think spears are OP. Only disadvantage is that they're useless in MP where no one forms up at all.

Edit: I really hope they add some form of communication to MP besides typing in chat. Would be awesome to have a commander ordering commands with a pop up telling you where to go/what to do. Working as a mercenary is really cool, it's funny seeing the ai telling me to charge right after I told my units to charge.

 

[GG Cannon]

I disagree. Longer spears are unwieldy due to something called torque. Also every spear I've used is capable of one hitting anyone if I hit them in the face, regardless of armor. Piercing damage seems to do a lot even to mail armor (spears can't pierce mail). Spears are the only weapon that can be used over other infantry effectively. In my mind I think spears are OP. Only disadvantage is that they're useless in MP where no one forms up at all.

Edit: I really hope they add some form of communication to MP besides typing in chat. Would be awesome to have a commander ordering commands with a pop up telling you where to go/what to do

There were players in tournament in videos that when it comes to a spear vs spear fight, they ditch the spear and punch their enemies to the death, winning easily even with battle AI at challenging and all damage to realistic.

Longer spears were indeed used and that first image in the post is a Bedouin Arab warrior carrying a long hunting az-zaġāyah from 1914.
That image is also present in wikipedia's Spear article.

This is a display on Spears through history on Oxford's museum.
You can see that a lot of them are really quite lenghty.

Torque is the reason why there was proper technique to use lengthy spears and why spears were generally never bigger than about twice the size of its user, yet, they can indeed be as long as twice a person's height.

 

[High Risx]

Horseman's lances were designed to be disposable by snapping on impact, because if you held onto the lance while piercing a body, a shield or even the ground you would get knocked back by the sudden difference in speed between you and your horse.

A phalanx spear was over 3 meters long, this works really well in tight formations but not in loose skirmirsh.

Spears need to be quicker in thrusting, almost as fast as a boxers jab.

Spears are weak because other weapons don't suffer a proximity penalty.
I have been hit by the wooden handle of an axe )not the head) for 120 damage. 1 shot kill.
If swung weapons also had a proximity penalty spears would be better in combat.

 

[hsngrms]

Penalty or not, hitting enemy from face or neck (unarmored points) and only doing 1 dmg or 15 dmg at most still ridiculous. Isn't it? ?

I believe we can do better damage with just sharpened wooden stick in reality, considering how much damage spears give in this game.

 

[GG Cannon]

Horseman's lances were designed to be disposable by snapping on impact, because if you held onto the lance while piercing a body, a shield or even the ground you would get knocked back by the sudden difference in speed between you and your horse.

That is indeed true, yet not the case for Halbeards and Glaives, which could be as long as a horseman's spear yet they didn't snap when piercing an enemy, because their shape generally made it harder for the to pierce and stick to the target and more likely to rip the body by sliding the blade part until the head of the weapon came out with the strength of the momentum alone, and we have both in the game registered as lance/polearm and both could be used for couch lancing technique as well.

A phalanx spear was over 3 meters long, this works really well in tight formations but not in loose skirmirsh.

Spears need to be quicker in thrusting, almost as fast as a boxers jab.

Yup, that's the reason roman soldiers in phalanx formation also always had a sword with them in case enemies broke too close for the spear, making them ditch the spear and fight with the sword alone.

And I also find their thrust too slow.
The quickest of spear thrusts in the game feels too slugish. They should be a LOT faster, as you said, like a boxer's jab.

Spears are weak because other weapons don't suffer a proximity penalty.
I have been hit by the wooden handle of an axe )not the head) for 120 damage. 1 shot kill.
If swung weapons also had a proximity penalty spears would be better in combat.

That as well bothers me a LOT. They are the ONLY weapon in the game with a proximity penalty. This can reduce their damage in literal 100% if the enemy is to close.
Either they need to make the spear deal reduced damage on enemies that are too close, remove the proximity penalty or add the proximity penalty to axes and maces as well.

 

[Cybercoco]

Spears are very effective in this game. They definitely have the reach advantage by a long shot, so you lose me by claiming that swords have the same reach. That's simply not true. The main strategy when fighting with a spear versus someone with a regular melee weapon is keeping your distance and taking advantage of the superior reach. This is one of the few instances where shield bash, kicking, and shoving opponents is useful. Spears are more difficult to aim and hit with and take more practice to get better at. I would agree that they should be faster, but then again skill level may need to be taken into account. As skill level is supposed to increase melee speed.

I'd also say that it's possible that piercing damage isn't bypassing armor enough in general. I've noticed that even with a sword that cut damage tends to do more damage than piercing, even on heavily armored targets, which doesn't seem right. But this is purely anecdotal, and I haven't done any real testing on cut versus piercing damage. Though, I'm still doing way more damage on lower armor targets than you're claiming here. On average, I'd say it's in the 30s and 40s in the face and neck areas and 20s and 30s in the chest. You're playing a different game than I am, apparently.

 

[GG Cannon]

Penalty or not, hitting enemy from face or neck (unarmored points) and only doing 1 dmg or 15 dmg at most still ridiculous. Isn't it? ?

I believe we can do better damage with just sharpened wooden stick in reality, considering how much damage spears give in this game.

I second that SO HARD!
It is incomprehensible at times when I hit an enemy full on with a spear and see that it dealt 3 damage.
Even with a full plate armor it should be a lot more than that.

 

[PoonSlayer666]

Horseman's lances were designed to be disposable by snapping on impact, because if you held onto the lance while piercing a body, a shield or even the ground you would get knocked back by the sudden difference in speed between you and your horse.

A phalanx spear was over 3 meters long, this works really well in tight formations but not in loose skirmirsh.

Spears need to be quicker in thrusting, almost as fast as a boxers jab.

Spears are weak because other weapons don't suffer a proximity penalty.
I have been hit by the wooden handle of an axe )not the head) for 120 damage. 1 shot kill.
If swung weapons also had a proximity penalty spears would be better in combat.

I agree besides the speed part. Thrusting is simply moving a load, the weight of the spear should affect the speed. Heavier spears should be much harder to get moving (inertia), but deal a lot more damage (momentum) when they do hit, compared to lighter spears. Spears in general are lighter than other weapons so they should be faster. Honestly really hard to tell how fast the weapons are since it's all in less than a second.

Not sure how proximity penalty works, agree axes and swinging polearms seem to bug out and handle does full damage.

 

[GG Cannon]

Spears are very effective in this game. They definitely have the reach advantage by a long shot, so you lose me by claiming that swords have the same reach. That's simply not true. The main strategy when fighting with a spear versus someone with a regular melee weapon is keeping your distance and taking advantage of the superior reach. This is one of the few instances where shield bash, kicking, and shoving opponents is useful. Spears are more difficult to aim and hit with and take more practice to get better at. I would agree that they should be faster, but then again skill level may need to be taken into account. As skill level is supposed to increase melee speed.

I'd also say that it's possible that piercing damage isn't bypassing armor enough in general. I've noticed that even with a sword that cut damage tends to do more damage than piercing, even on heavily armored targets, which doesn't seem right. But this is purely anecdotal, and I haven't done any real testing on cut versus piercing damage. Though, I'm still doing way more damage on lower armor targets than you're claiming here. On average, I'd say it's in the 30s and 40s in the face and neck areas and 20s and 30s in the chest. You're playing a different game than I am, apparently.

I would severely disagree with your claim on reach as I truly feel it is too short, specially considering the examples I gave, but I'll not focus on that.

Even a complete amateur is able to thrust the spear a lot faster than the game currently allows, so at least both of us agree that thrust speed is currently too low.
Yet, I still very much support my claim that holding technique is eating too much of the spear reach, which makes them even shorter than I feel and see they currently are.

We both also agree that pierce damage should do more damage than cut damage, specially on armored enemies.
Even the damage you said, 30s and 40s in the face and neck areas and 20s and 30s in the chest, is too low considering how strong spears were in real life.
They were one of the if not THE most widely used weapon in history for a reason.

 

[GG Cannon]

I agree besides the speed part. Thrusting is simply moving a load, the weight of the spear should affect the speed. Heavier spears should be much harder to get moving (inertia), but deal a lot more damage (momentum) when they do hit, compared to lighter spears. Spears in general are lighter than other weapons so they should be faster. Honestly really hard to tell how fast the weapons are since it's all in less than a second.

Not sure how proximity penalty works, agree axes and swinging polearms seem to bug out and handle does full damage.

That I agree, that weight(and length) should affect the thrust speed, but that also means that shorter spears should be a LOT faster than they currently are, while longer spears should do a LOT more damage.

And about the proximity penalty, it can completely block your strike, so it is a 100% damage reduction, while axes and glaives swinging do full damage on the pole area, which makes no sense.

 

[PoonSlayer666]

We both also agree that pierce damage should do more damage than cut damage, specially on armored enemies.

Please go find a video on any weapon piercing mail armor and post it here. Otherwise you're completely wrong, a swing has much more momentum than a thrust and against an armored opponent should inflict much more blunt damage than simply poking a wall with a stick.

Edit: Consider if a staff is going to do blunt damage no matter what, would you rather swing it or thrust it? There might be cases where thrusting is harder to block (blocking is ****ed right now). Otherwise swings will always do more blunt damage.

The main disadvantage I have for spears is they are blocked simply by right clicking even if it's very clear the spear is going over or under the shield.

 

[kweassa]

Spears are weak in the game simply because the "push enemy back" function of the spear is divided into two parts and slapped on as a perk, at a skill level that's pretty high so most people couldn't even check to see if those perks are working -- This, is the only reason.

The ability to keep the enemy at bay upon block/hit, should be the DEFAULT function of a spear, not a perk.



The one advantage that puts spears over other arms in real life is simply the distance advantage, and this advantage is a HUGE one. Even in boxing, a mere difference of few inches in reach is usually considered a significant advantage, and when it comes to weapons that can be lethal, the importance of reach is that much amplified. Yes, the spear becomes ineffective when the opponent moves inside its reach (not counting special techniques like short-grip), but as seen in many sparring/bouts from great many re-enactors/HEMA societies, getting inside that reach is no easy task even with a shield (although generally, a shield is considered to be a significant counter to the spear).

And this distance advantage, is very easily denied in the game. A valid hit from a proper distance does stagger the opponent a bit, but anywhere closer the opponent is neither pushed nor staggered. Even when inflicting damage, the hit is considered invalid and does not interrupt enemy attacks or advances. To exaggerate a bit, just press "W" key and spam attack button = win against every AI wielding a spear.

Now, in case of other weapons that are usually swung to make an attack, I can see how an invalid hit would not cause interruption. But even if the distance is close, a spearhead hitting a person is a SOLID SHAFT THAT'S PERPENDICULAR TO THE TORSO.

An improper swing at a too close distance would hit your shoulders or the torso from the sides and that wouldn't necessarily cancel your own attack, so I can see why improper swings with 1h weapons could fail to interrupt the enemy... but a spear/polearm, is a solid shaft that's braced against your torso/shoulder from the front. Even if the thrust is improper and fails to penetrate, that is DEFINITELY going to stop you from swinging anything, or closing in further.


This, is why the spear is generally considered very weak in the game. I won't even go into how the spear attacks aren't really representative of actual spear attacks, which are most usually quick jabs and thrusts from an extended position that maximizes the reach advantage. If this aspect is also modeled in I imagine suddenly everyone will start crying "spears are OP."

So realistically speaking, and considering balance, the only real fix we would need is not a longer spear, not any new technique... just let the spear keep the enemy at bay.

IMO, assuming a PVP multiplayer fight, "The spearman may never be able to land a good hit on you, but at the same time, you'll find it extremely difficult to close in against a spear" is my idea of an ideal balance where the spear should be: If you have a shield, just defending and angling the shield will make the spear useless. Even without a shield, all the spear has is either up or down -- only two attacks that are most hugely telegraphed in the game, and ridiculously slower than a sword swing. So, realistically, assuming similar skill level, the opponent will never really get any hit on you. That's fine. But, if the opponent is using a spear, that means the opponent doesn't want to lose. Even if you can defend every thrust the opponent lobs at you, actually closing in to land a hit is going to be frustratingly difficult <--- this, would be the ideal balance for the spear in the current iteration of Bannerlords.

 

[PoonSlayer666]

An improper swing at a too close distance would hit your shoulders or the torso from the sides and that wouldn't necessarily cancel your own attack, so I can see why improper swings with 1h weapons could fail to interrupt the enemy... but a spear/polearm, is a solid shaft that's braced against your torso/shoulder from the front. Even if the thrust is improper and fails to penetrate, that is DEFINITELY going to stop you from swinging anything, or closing in further.

For the first thrust I agree, as soon as you pull the spear back you better ditch it for a sword though because there's no chance you'll get a second thrust in.

 

[High Risx]

Please go find a video on any weapon piercing mail armor and post it here. Otherwise you're completely wrong, a swing has much more momentum than a thrust and against an armored opponent should inflict much more blunt damage than simply poking a wall with a stick.

Edit: Consider if a staff is going to do blunt damage no matter what, would you rather swing it or thrust it? There might be cases where thrusting is harder to block (blocking is ****ed right now). Otherwise swings will always do more blunt damage.

The main disadvantage I have for spears is they are blocked simply by right clicking even if it's very clear the spear is going over or under the shield.

Thrusts are more deadly since the weapon will be more likely to travel deeper into the persons body hitting vital parts, swings are more likely to do grazing damage.

Chain mail was designed to stop cuts not punctures, because many soldiers died after the fighting from all the small cuts and grazes due to infection.

 

[GG Cannon]

Please go find a video on any weapon piercing mail armor and post it here. Otherwise you're completely wrong, a swing has much more momentum than a thrust and against an armored opponent should inflict much more blunt damage than simply poking a wall with a stick.

Edit: Consider if a staff is going to do blunt damage no matter what, would you rather swing it or thrust it? There might be cases where thrusting is harder to block (blocking is ****ed right now). Otherwise swings will always do more blunt damage.

The main disadvantage I have for spears is they are blocked simply by right clicking even if it's very clear the spear is going over or under the shield.

Spear vs thick plate, still at least 1" penetration and a very strong impact even by someone that isn't really trained as a warrior.

 

[kweassa]

Anachronistic. Plate armor comes 200 years later in Calradia.

 

[PoonSlayer666]

That's plate armor not mail armor.