Spear speed

[belgwyn]

have you ever joined a practice fight and had the bad luck to spawn with a spear.
can we please buff the spear attack speeds, they are predictable to block, up and down and are only good vs cav which.
2 handed spears should at least be as quick as swords because they can't be paired with a shield...

also the damage from spears on foot is horrible, its like a 1/3 of the thrust damage of a one handed sword and they don't even have a secondary cut attack. That should also really be re evaluated, spears are not at all viable aside from cavalry or to counter cavalry, and to be honest even a 2 handed axe will dismount cavalry as good as a spear.

 

[CoolYo]

I think spears are good against cav and as cav, but really suck bad in arena. I agree I think it needs a speed buff.

 

[h1zchan]

I think spears are good against cav and as cav, but really suck bad in arena. I agree I think it needs a speed buff.

Speed buff would ironically make them harder to use on horseback as your thrust animations would finish much sooner. And even in real life spears are pretty awkward and slow when used in one hand. But i agree spear in two hands need a big buff. Right now they deal laughable damage and successful hits dont even stop the enemy from closing in. Either they should get a damage and speed buff, or give them the ability to knock down the opponent as walking into a thrust should do to you. Spear in two hand also shouldn't get damage penalty when the enemy gets too close because you can shift grip instantly along the shaft when it's used in two hands.

 

[chiconspiracy]

Speed buff would ironically make them harder to use on horseback as your thrust animations would finish much sooner. And even in real life spears are pretty awkward and slow when used in one hand. But i agree spear in two hands need a big buff. Right now they deal laughable damage and successful hits dont even stop the enemy from closing in. Either they should get a damage and speed buff, or give them the ability to knock down the opponent as walking into a thrust should do to you. Spear in two hand also shouldn't get damage penalty when the enemy gets too close because you can shift grip instantly along the shaft when it's used in two hands.

Short spears are very handy when used overarm properly. They should get both a speed and damage boost compared to how they are now.


They can also be used to parry well:


Spear in two hands should be very fast.

 

[h1zchan]

Short spears are very handy when used overarm properly. They should get both a speed and damage boost compared to how they are now.


They can also be used to parry well:

They're not slow in one hand but definitely not as handy as swords. Sword and shield usually beats spear and shield in duels. Sword alone tends to die to spear and shield however. But but spear in two hands should be op and even beat sword and shield most of the time.

 

[ThePendulum]

Speed buff would ironically make them harder to use on horseback as your thrust animations would finish much sooner. And even in real life spears are pretty awkward and slow when used in one hand. But i agree spear in two hands need a big buff. Right now they deal laughable damage and successful hits dont even stop the enemy from closing in. Either they should get a damage and speed buff, or give them the ability to knock down the opponent as walking into a thrust should do to you. Spear in two hand also shouldn't get damage penalty when the enemy gets too close because you can shift grip instantly along the shaft when it's used in two hands.

You couldnt be further from the truth that spears are slow in real life.

 

[chiconspiracy]

They're not slow in one hand but definitely not as handy as swords. Sword and shield usually beats spear and shield in duels. Sword alone tends to die to spear and shield however. But but spear in two hands should be op and even beat sword and shield most of the time.

Maybe not quite as quick, but superior reach, better angles of attack, the ability to parry a much larger area, and the ability to hit MUCH harder than a sword (including the ability to displace an opponent's strike with your own) give a short spear some serious advantages even at shield to shield range. We have plenty of artwork from the Greek heroic period (when dueling was far more common and phalanx warfare wasn't as developed) that depict the two combatants retaining their spears and keeping their swords in their sheaths.

 

[h1zchan]

You couldnt be further from the truth that spears are slow in real life.

Spears in one hand are not as fast as swords. Trust me we done experiment at our local hema club and got similar results as Lindybeige on this issue. However when the spearman ditches shield to grip spear in two hands suddenly he becomes op.

edit: i should also add the superior reach of spears make them excellent group fighting weapons as lindybeige already mentioned in his video

 

[Fantomen]

Lo

Spears in one hand are not as fast as swords. Trust me we done experiment at our local hema club and got similar results as Lindybeige on this issue.

Yeah, I think one handy answer for why spear and shield was so common is the simple possibility to drop your shield on the ground and swithch to a two handed stance once you get into a more man-to-man type of situation. Also who's to say the ranks behind the first one didn't use their spears two handed to thrust between and above the shielded first rank.

However one thing that looks really wrong to me in this video and many like it is the way they thrust.

I've trained a lot of martial arts and the way to execute a thrust with a weapon is quite similar to how you throw a proper punch with your rear hand. The power and reach of a thrust all comes from twisting the body and sometimes adding in a forwards body momentum, not from the arm, but in this video they all thrust with only the arm which makes for very little speed and power, and this makes the spear in duels seem weaker than it should IMO.

As far as speed for thrusting a spear vs a sword I'd say the difference is not all that big but the sword is slightly faster, but a spear is more accurate because the momentum of a spear along the trajectory of your thrust is more balanced, both because it's longer but also because it's starts off balanced against your elbow. If you try to thrust as hard as you possibly can with a proper hip rotation and footwork it's actually far easier to hit a very small target (like if you try to hit a soda can or something) with a spear than a sword.

The same principle holds true for a sword or other weapons, your arms are weak and slow compared to your body, you always swing faster and harder if you use your hips and body momentum as the main source of movement and power and that goes for unarmed or armed combat alike. There are some exceptions like horizontal slicing with a sharp short weapon against flesh, which can be effective whith only arm movement, because not much power is needed if you're just looking to cut and don't need to cut all that deep to inflict a wound, but those slicing movements are still faster and more powerful if you add a hip rotation to them so there is no reason not to.

 

[h1zchan]

As far as speed for thrusting a spear vs a sword I'd say the difference is not all that big but the sword is slightly faster, but a spear is more accurate because the momentum of a spear along the trajectory of your thrust is more balanced, both because it's longer but also because it's starts off balanced against your elbow.

Spears are tip heavy unlike swords which are usually balanced closer to the hilt. This conbined with the fact that they're longer means they require stronger physique to thrust accurately at the target. Not surprisingly therefore when your spear is knocked offline it also takes more effort to bring it back online than it would a sword. This incidentally is why when you hold spear in two hands your hands have to be farther apart than the way how you hold a longsword in two hands. I'm not sure what martial arts you've been training but boxing is not the same as fencing. Generating force with your hip helps with deliverying Zwerchau but I wouldn't try that when trying to do a thrust. You can do a passing step when throwing your thrust forward but its not the twisting of the body but rather the forward momentum generated by your step forward thats adding power.

If you think you can use spear more effectively than the guys in the video why dont youjust go get a 2m long shaft from your local hardware store and a replica spearhead from ebay and try it for your self. Thenbuy an economic rapier from castille armory and see how much nimbler that is compared to the spear.

 

[Fantomen]

Spears are tip heavy unlike swords which are usually balanced closer to the hilt. This conbined with the fact that they're longer means they require stronger physique to thrust accurately at the target. Not surprisingly therefore when your spear is knocked offline it also takes more effort to bring it back online than it would a sword. I'm not sure what martial arts you've been training but boxing is not the same as fencing. Generating force with your hip helps with deliverying Zwerchau but I wouldn't try that when trying to do a thrust. If you think you can use the spear more effectively than the guys in the video why dont youjust go get a 2m long shaft from your local hardware store and buy replica spearhead from ebay and try it for your self. Thenbuy an economic rapier from castille armory and see how much nimbler that is compared to the spear.

I have fought with both spears and swords, I'm not saying a spear isn't less nimble than a rapier or that boxing and fencing are the same.

I'm just saying your body is the main source of speed and power in all sorts of fighting, it is precisely because a spear is heavy that your arm is a rubbish source of power for thrusting it.

In a lot of scored fencing you also have the problem that you're just trying to touch your opponent somewhere, so it encourages really artificial behavior and strikes that wouldn't have the force to penetrate much.

 

[h1zchan]

I'm just saying your body is the main source of speed and power in all sorts of fighting, it is precisely because a spear is heavy that your arm is a rubbish source of power for thrusting it.

Agreed. Body and arm mist work in tandem. You can do the same in bannerlord by releasing your thrust and then step it in while the thrusting animation is in play. The problem is that currently shields block melee hits from head to toe. Your thrust to your opponent's legs get stopped by magic force field when the opponent raises his shield to cover his face. That's not how shields are supposed to work. The correct way to deal with spear thrust to the leg should be stepping offline or backwards, or maybe dipping the shield if it's big enough which most shields in the game aren't visually speaking.

 

[Kipsta]

Spear needs damage buff and speed factor for attacks has to be adjusted downwards to compensate for that.

 

[Fantomen]

Agreed. Body and arm mist work in tandem

I think my main point here is that the thrusts in those videos don't reflect the power I think a spear thrust in warfare had, and that I think that the potential power of the thrust power (along with the reach of course) was one of the main reasons behind the popularity of spears.

With a spear you can really go all out in terms of body power, rotation and forwards momentum without losing much accuracy, and you can hit your target really really hard. I'm not sure blocking a spear from a real soldier with a shield was as trivial as just putting the shield between you and the spear, you'd need to be well braced af and probably angle your shield to deflect rather than take the full momentum as well. I mean I can punch or thrust something hard enough to knock an off balance person over, and I'm just a regular guy who works out. Medieval soldiers, depending on how elite they were, would probably have at least twice the power I have in their thrusts and strikes.

I'm not trying to trivialise these tests, and I'm probably also missing a lot as it's hard to know how things really were. But to some degree it looks like the same difference as you have with martial arts that train full contact sparring versus those that don't, if there is no full contact sparring the element of power and what really works just isn't there and you get all sorts nonsensical ideas poularized only to quickly be debunked in a real fight. (like "size/strength doesn't matter" and other such nonsense).

 

[Chaosreaper187]

this is the fifth thread this week on how spears should be buffed.
1. one thread is enough for the devs to see it and Question if they Need to buff spears.
2. there's a separate Forum called ''suggestions'' where you're supposed to post stuff like this instead of spamming this forum

 

[ThePendulum]

Spears in one hand are not as fast as swords. Trust me we done experiment at our local hema club and got similar results as Lindybeige on this issue. However when the spearman ditches shield to grip spear in two hands suddenly he becomes op.

edit: i should also add the superior reach of spears make them excellent group fighting weapons as lindybeige already mentioned in his video

My half awake brain omitted the "in one hand" part. My argument was that spears held two handed are capable of being thrusted fast as ****. My bad.

 

[Stratigo]

Short spears are very handy when used overarm properly. They should get both a speed and damage boost compared to how they are now.


They can also be used to parry well:


Spear in two hands should be very fast.

Most modern historians don't think anyone used overarm spearmanship. You can stab just as fast with a better grip.

 

[h1zchan]

Most modern historians don't think anyone used overarm spearmanship. You can stab just as fast with a better grip.

I suspect overhand grip is good for penetrating mail or bronze plate at close range. It's also harder to parry an overhand thrust at close quarters if it comes from a taller person, higher ground or a horseman.

 

[Stratigo]

I suspect overhand grip is good for penetrating mail or bronze plate at close range. It's also harder to parry an overhand thrust at close quarters if it comes from a taller person, higher ground or a horseman.

It's easier to parry because it heavily limits the angle of attack, and most people had shields. An overhand grip doesn't deliver more power than another type of grip.

 

[h1zchan]

It's easier to parry because it heavily limits the angle of attack, and most people had shields. An overhand grip doesn't deliver more power than another type of grip.

its harder to parry if it comes down from above mainly because shields are heavy and tends to drop lower and lower when you get tired which happens very quickly. It also takes time to lift your shield up to block stuff coming down from above. You can't keep your shield up all the time because then you'll be blinding your self while the opponent can do all sorts of stuff to you such as pressing down your own shield against your face rendering you defenceless. Obviously while he's doing this to you his legs are still vulnerable, unless he's wearing full body mail. The greeks shown on the vase paintings were all heavily armored. So too were the norman knights depicted in Bayeux Tapestry. Armor changes the game completely.