Spear Bracing

[Finzi]

At the moment there doesn't seem to be any real counter to cavalry. The best you can do is buy a long pike and hold it out, maybe doing some damage to the horse or rider as they go past. However this strategy is mediocre at best, and very dependent on the length of your polearm compared to that of the rider.

I would suggest that they introduce spear bracing to give infantry a viable way of fighting cavalry. Historically, pike formations were the main weapon against cavalry in the middle ages, and eventually resulted in their decline as the powerhouse of the battlefield. Furthermore, in the SP game you sometimes see characters mention that the only way you can beat a charge of Swadian Knights is a "Rhodok Spear Wall" or something. As the game currently stands, there is no Rhodok Spear Wall, just a bunch of guys with spears who stand around and seem to do just as badly as the other infantry in the game when hit by a galloping knight.

Spear bracing shouldn't be hard to implement - it was already present in several mods in original M&B. It wouldn't really be an "I Win" button against cavalry, as it does make the soldier less mobile and they could be outflanked more easily. Maybe . . . and this is probably just wishful thinking . . . it would lead to infantry TACTICS in multiplayer (!!!).

Anyway, give me your thoughts on the matter, maybe the devs will even listen to us.

 

[Merlkir]

It wouldn't really be an "I Win" button against cavalry,

it would.

Pikemen do just fine against cavalry already. If you can't, practice more.

 

[Jackel_407]

I think it would be a nice implementation in single player, but it would be abused in multiplayer.

 

[Betskillz]

I think it would be a nice implementation in single player, but it would be abused in multiplayer.

Thats what Knights in the late middle ages thought. "These pikemen are being abused"

 

[Vornne]

I agree with Merlkir, pikes already work just fine against cavalry; I very often take that role, and have been playing the game for about 6 months by now. There have been many many changes to the footman / horseman balance over the beta, with plenty of heated arguments; I think making some "pike couching" mode would be really bad for the game, similar to the automatic horseback couching that was changed to need player input. The current system requires you to time your strike for maximum damage, adding more player skills to the equation, rather than being able to have some fixed "no cavalry" areas that only require you to point at each horse as it comes by.

Formations and pike walls are possible, with large numbers of skilled players, but they might not look all perfect like you might expect; in my experience the best "formations" in the small battles of this game are rather loose and free flowing, with every player looking around and moving to help in situations as they happen.

 

[hruza]

Historically, pike formations were the main weapon against cavalry in the middle ages

And that is why game is in no way flawed in this respect. You don't need bracing. What is missing is formation. Soldiers fought in formations (even cavalry) and that is especially true for pikeman. So I would say what we need is some sort of formation AI (including ranks).

In game quit good weapon against cavalry is also 2H weapon. It can block spear trust and can be used to crush charging horse if you time your blow right. You have to dodge couched lances of course but couched lance have quit narrow field of use so it can be done.

Bye the way, when I see spear/pike armed infantry man facing me I rather turn my horse and lance at some different target.

"Pike couching" of some sort would be nice (if AI is made to use it as well) but I suggest pikeman would became immobile. Against cavalry, pikes were struck in to the ground like this:

That would balance such mode just fine and made it useful mostly in formation mode.

 

[Archonsod]

At the moment there doesn't seem to be any real counter to cavalry. The best you can do is buy a long pike and hold it out, maybe doing some damage to the horse or rider as they go past. However this strategy is mediocre at best, and very dependent on the length of your polearm compared to that of the rider.

Yup, because stopping the cavalryman dead in his tracks with a thrust is far too underpowered. It's not like he's left as a sitting duck for any of your nearby friends, or even yourself if you're quick.

 

[Kleidophoros]

It wouldn't really be an "I Win" button against cavalry,

it would.

Actually it's a I lose button if the cavalry has any idea of the game; those pikemen will be immobile.

 

[Urist]

Usually more experienced cavalry is too smart to attack an aware pikeman.
They search for another target then.

What gets the footmen killed is usually the lack of disciplin. If every
pikeman would stick to a crossbowman, defending him and
if furthermore the pikemen would secure each other's backs in a tight group,
then cavalry would have a very hard time.

 

[Finzi]

Historically, pike formations were the main weapon against cavalry in the middle ages

"Pike couching" of some sort would be nice (if AI is made to use it as well) but I suggest pikeman would became immobile. Against cavalry, pikes were struck in to the ground like this:

That would balance such mode just fine and made it useful mostly in formation mode.

This is the kind of thing I had in mind. It would allow pike formations, albeit immobile ones, and give people an incentive to work together against cavalry. It's not really a 'couch pike' action as such, more of an entrench pike, as you can't switch it on and run around with it as an 'anti cavalry autopike'.

 

[Shadow0]

Usually more experienced cavalry is too smart to attack an aware pikeman.
They search for another target then.

What gets the footmen killed is usually the lack of disciplin. If every
pikeman would stick to a crossbowman, defending him and
if furthermore the pikemen would secure each other's backs in a tight group,
then cavalry would have a very hard time.

I'm with this guy, I steer clear of anyone with a spear that's aware of me and I can rack up huge k/d's (over 20-0 once) and just bumrush anyone who isn't paying attention, works like a charm.

I've also fought cavalry while on foot and in most cases I just laugh at them while I out-manuever them and take out their horse or wedge an axe in their face while their busy thinking it's a swinging axe (I LOVE THROWING AXES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!, also only works if your fully aware of them).

And most importantly, I've also seen what archers can do to infantry who are dumb enough to stand still, move in a straight line or stick to a small area. If bracing was added then it'd likely leave the person doing it stationary, no? well that's just a free kill for an archer, and last time I checked it only takes a moment for an arrow to hit its mark.

 

[socks]

I think he might be referring to singleplayer, not multiplayer. In SP cavalry rape pikemen.

 

[shinji]

I don't know about you guys but When i set the AI to good and tell my man to stand closer and hold fire they engage cavalry very very good. I actually thought they are too powerful and my spear man are lord killers.

What you should do is not put regular sword inf with them create a new group call it spearmen and always ask'm to form and a close formation. trust me they attack CAV just in time to get the speed/damage multiplier! I lost so many horse that way! my champion became LAME!!!!!!

With human player it's even worse they jump at you and get like 90% speed bonus next thing you know you're on the ground !

With this game ... every time I wanna criticize something I find that it's just me ... who need training and that what I do.

 

[rapier17]

At the moment there doesn't seem to be any real counter to cavalry. The best you can do is buy a long pike and hold it out, maybe doing some damage to the horse or rider as they go past. However this strategy is mediocre at best, and very dependent on the length of your polearm compared to that of the rider.

Yup, because stopping the cavalryman dead in his tracks with a thrust is far too underpowered. It's not like he's left as a sitting duck for any of your nearby friends, or even yourself if you're quick.

Best anti-cavalry combination for myself in MP I found was a pike in the first slot, glaive in the second. Stop the horse with the pike, then switch to the glaive and chop the horse down with a blow to its head. Finish cavalryman. Rinse repeat. Managed to get about 8 in a row that way during a CTF match.

If it were for singleplayer, I'd be fully behind it, would make the pike troops (i.e. Rhodoks) far better than they currently are against cavalry. Whenever I have any in my party in a battle or against a Rhodok Lords, and cavalry is approaching them, they have odd habits such as switching to one-handed weapons and shields...Anyone else find that?

 

[Finzi]

I see now that there are some valid arguments against implementing spear bracing in MP, though I don't think it would be bad to give us the option.

But definitely it should be introduced in SP, currently the Rhodoks rely on their terrain more than anything else to fight cavalry and as soon as they move onto the plain they get cut down just like anybody else.

 

[vonskyme]

Playing as a cavalryman myself (most of the time), I also avoid anyone with an Awlpike. I tend to charge people with just spears, but it's an iffy prospect (and I don't couch, I thrust. Much more effective against a spearman as you can veer off in time). Once I'm unhorsed, assuming I survive the instant stabfest that happens as I slide along, I find the lance is good enough that I can down almost every cavalryman. The only time I have trouble is against those damn great lances...

All in all - pikes are good enough for me to avoid as a cavalryman, and when on foot cavalry are only nuisances if you can see them (I hate hearing the sound of hooves though, you've just got enough time to go 'Oh, Sh...' Before your head tumbles along the ground), so I think the balance works well. The only problem is in team games I tend to down the horse, allowing friends to get all the kills!

 

[Arcas Nebun]

The only problem is in team games I tend to down the horse, allowing friends to get all the kills!

  Thats why they're called team games .

 

[Topper]

I think that SP and MP should be considered separately. In MP it is only a matter of team playing and ability, you can form a "spear wall" with disciplined and cooperating players.

However, in SP everything depends on combat AI. I don't think that cavalry is unmatched on the field and spearmen sucks: most of the time when I encounter infantry holding awlpikes with both hands and I charge them, they stop me effortlessly by thrusting their lance into my horse, which causes it to stop immediately. This happens against forest bandits too! The have a long weapon and the head of the horse is their nearest target: they are very efficient! I play with hard difficult settings, things may change in other settings: I think everyone posting about weapon effectiveness should specify difficulty settings too.

But, I must admit, for the sake of fun and gameplay, it would be wonderful to have formations in AI: think about a group of spearmen, tight, holding ground, with spears braced, shouting to stand still while cavalry charges them... reminds me of 300 Spartans... 

 

[rapier17]

But, I must admit, for the sake of fun and gameplay, it would be wonderful to have formations in AI: think about a group of spearmen, tight, holding ground, with spears braced, shouting to stand still while cavalry charges them... reminds me of 300 Spartans... 

Made me think of Braveheart more  "Hold....Hold!...HOLD...HOLD!....NOW!"

I agree, formations is something thats lacking in the game, and with all the mods out there for M&B that introduce formations, it's surprising that TW didn't actually put it into the game for SP as it is obviously something that the community thinks is a great idea.

As for the AI & spears etc, I'll have to ramp the AI up one more notch then and see what happens, see if it'll cure the weapon-switching-woes of the Rhodoks

 

[Aeon221]

Chambering the weapon is close enough for government work. I'm personally more interested in having different grips for the various weapons, and being able to switch on the fly and get different attacks and damage from doing so.

Even a brief examination of the art of the landsknecht displays an enormous diversity in swords, grips and combat styles amongst a seemingly homogeneous population of mercenaries.