Spear Bracing (1.6.2)

正在查看此主题的用户

Well... i have 2 things to say about that:
1. the cavalry would till charge into the pikes, because of a simple thing: the impact of the hourse charging is bigger than the dencity of the spear. aka: it will break, and the line will break as well... Think of it as Winkelried moment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_von_Winkelried)
2. If you would change the cavalry AI, i htink it would kind of make them obsolete a bit. because, if not charging towards infantry what would (and could) they do?

But im not an expert, so if anyone has better info than i have, do tell :smile:
I can tell you right now that direct charges into infantry lines did not happen very often because it was usually suicide. Cavalry was used to flank or to force a gap where a weakness was made.

The idea of the head-on charge of cavalry vs infanty is mostly Hollywood, and if you watch Braveheart you can see how it ended :smile:

Cavalry dominance faded with the introduction of the pike & crossbow formation, followed shortly by pike & musket. After that, cavalry was used mostly to skirmish and flank.

Games like Total War tend to do a better job of showing it realistically, especially when spears are used. In Bannerlord we have too few units, not enough spears, and AI that doesn't know what to do against it to show it realistically.
 
I can tell you right now that direct charges into infantry lines did not happen very often because it was usually suicide. Cavalry was used to flank or to force a gap where a weakness was made.

The idea of the head-on charge of cavalry vs infanty is mostly Hollywood, and if you watch Braveheart you can see how it ended :smile:

Cavalry dominance faded with the introduction of the pike & crossbow formation, followed shortly by pike & musket. After that, cavalry was used mostly to skirmish and flank.

Games like Total War tend to do a better job of showing it realistically, especially when spears are used. In Bannerlord we have too few units, not enough spears, and AI that doesn't know what to do against it to show it realistically.
This just isn't really true, you can definitely train horses to directly charge into infantry, horses are naturally terrible for any kind of stressful combat situation, if you can train them to be collected and effective in that general environment, what makes you think you can't train them to charge directly into infantry? Heavy cavalry specifically was trained to do this throughout history. Even pike formations, many elite cavalry formations would smash pike formations and utterly crush them. It wasn't necessarily the norm, but this idea that "it's mostly Hollywood" is based on assumption and not the evidence. Usually, infantry that isn't highly disciplined would end up running from a cavalry charge because it's that terrifying. With how much heavy cavalry existed throughout history, and what it's usually used for, direct attacks was much more common than you say.

It was more so the combination of pike and musket more so than the crossbows or the pikes by themselves that declined the role of heavy cavalry. The crossbows helped tremendously but it was mostly the musket that made it suicidal, with the pikes being hard to cut through when the cavalry is all shot up and wavering.

Total war does a far better job than Bannerlord at showing it, but the "spears counter cav" thing isn't that realistically cut and dry, the spears themselves aren't stopping cavalry, it's more so the cohesion of the unit and whether or not they have the discipline and morale to hold fast against the terror of beasts.
 
This just isn't really true, you can definitely train horses to directly charge into infantry, horses are naturally terrible for any kind of stressful combat situation, if you can train them to be collected and effective in that general environment, what makes you think you can't train them to charge directly into infantry? Heavy cavalry specifically was trained to do this throughout history. Even pike formations, many elite cavalry formations would smash pike formations and utterly crush them. It wasn't necessarily the norm, but this idea that "it's mostly Hollywood" is based on assumption and not the evidence. Usually, infantry that isn't highly disciplined would end up running from a cavalry charge because it's that terrifying. With how much heavy cavalry existed throughout history, and what it's usually used for, direct attacks was much more common than you say.

It was more so the combination of pike and musket more so than the crossbows or the pikes by themselves that declined the role of heavy cavalry. The crossbows helped tremendously but it was mostly the musket that made it suicidal, with the pikes being hard to cut through when the cavalry is all shot up and wavering.

Total war does a far better job than Bannerlord at showing it, but the "spears counter cav" thing isn't that realistically cut and dry, the spears themselves aren't stopping cavalry, it's more so the cohesion of the unit and whether or not they have the discipline and morale to hold fast against the terror of beasts.
Like I've stated before, say something enough and it becomes the norm. The idea that cavalry didn't charge/smash infantry was a recent thing in bannerlord. In a non-bias manner, it sounds logically that horses didn't charge infantry, but it didn't mean that cavalry never charged infantry. The statement started on reddit and soon after spread and became gospel. There also existed those blindfolds for horses. The biggest issue about the bannerlord community is that the pro cavalry people don't want a counter for cavalry. Then there are those who beg for pike brace. Then once that feature appears, its the same people who begged for pike brace crying that horses don't charge into pikes. Some even claim that horses should stop a few feet from the pikewall. If that's the case then we might as well as not implement pikewall. But you can't satisfy everyone so a middle ground is made; Pikewall vs low friction sliding cavalry.
 
Like I've stated before, say something enough and it becomes the norm. The idea that cavalry didn't charge/smash infantry was a recent thing in bannerlord. In a non-bias manner, it sounds logically that horses didn't charge infantry, but it didn't mean that cavalry never charged infantry. The statement started on reddit and soon after spread and became gospel. There also existed those blindfolds for horses. The biggest issue about the bannerlord community is that the pro cavalry people don't want a counter for cavalry. Then there are those who beg for pike brace. Then once that feature appears, its the same people who begged for pike brace crying that horses don't charge into pikes. Some even claim that horses should stop a few feet from the pikewall. If that's the case then we might as well as not implement pikewall. But you can't satisfy everyone so a middle ground is made; Pikewall vs low friction sliding cavalry.
Yeah, you can't satisfy everyone. Honestly, I'd be happy with the Total War dynamic for cavalry, even if it isn't entirely realistic. This current system is kinda weird. I'd like to have the hard counter with pikes and the soft counter with spears, with the infantry AI working properly, and more devastating charges, as I've said before.
 
Yeah, you can't satisfy everyone. Honestly, I'd be happy with the Total War dynamic for cavalry, even if it isn't entirely realistic. This current system is kinda weird. I'd like to have the hard counter with pikes and the soft counter with spears, with the infantry AI working properly, and more devastating charges, as I've said before.
Definitely. Some ai as well, but its up to the player to play their cav and spears well. This is the same from people who complain that horse archers are too op. They clearly don't know how to strategize. You simply put the main group in the center and stretch out the anti cavalry units on the right wing. When the horse archers come from the left and around you, they will get engaged by the units on the right wing. A few patches ago, ai cavalry was really smart and mostly did flank attacks. However, recently taleworlds reduced the cavalry count and no longer to flank attacks. It just may be my game, but that's what i've noticed.
 
This just isn't really true, you can definitely train horses to directly charge into infantry, horses are naturally terrible for any kind of stressful combat situation, if you can train them to be collected and effective in that general environment, what makes you think you can't train them to charge directly into infantry? Heavy cavalry specifically was trained to do this throughout history. Even pike formations, many elite cavalry formations would smash pike formations and utterly crush them. It wasn't necessarily the norm, but this idea that "it's mostly Hollywood" is based on assumption and not the evidence. Usually, infantry that isn't highly disciplined would end up running from a cavalry charge because it's that terrifying. With how much heavy cavalry existed throughout history, and what it's usually used for, direct attacks was much more common than you say.

It was more so the combination of pike and musket more so than the crossbows or the pikes by themselves that declined the role of heavy cavalry. The crossbows helped tremendously but it was mostly the musket that made it suicidal, with the pikes being hard to cut through when the cavalry is all shot up and wavering.

Total war does a far better job than Bannerlord at showing it, but the "spears counter cav" thing isn't that realistically cut and dry, the spears themselves aren't stopping cavalry, it's more so the cohesion of the unit and whether or not they have the discipline and morale to hold fast against the terror of beasts.
They can and were trained to do it, but no commander wanted to sacrifice his cavalry in an ill-timed charge (meaning a charge against disciplined infantry not otherwise engaged). Against peasants in the feudal age? Sure. But they were not the main brunt of an assault.

Their main usefulness was in their mobility, getting around to flanks or behind to archers. There was a lot of study and tactic changes to counter that kind of assault, because at least in western europe cavalry weren't going to just charge into an enemy formation like in these games. You had infantry for that, and cavalry to hit the flanks in a pincer move. Battles were all about positioning to try to limit that cavalry assault as much as possible while allowing your own.

I have two very good books on medieval combat somewhere and I practice mounted combat myself every month. I don't remember too many details but I do remember the historians involved in writing these books did say cavalry wasn't used the way a lot of people think, nor was the dominance of cavalry quite so pronounced except for a smaller window of time earlier on in the medieval period.
 
They can and were trained to do it, but no commander wanted to sacrifice his cavalry in an ill-timed charge (meaning a charge against disciplined infantry not otherwise engaged). Against peasants in the feudal age? Sure. But they were not the main brunt of an assault.

Their main usefulness was in their mobility, getting around to flanks or behind to archers. There was a lot of study and tactic changes to counter that kind of assault, because at least in western europe cavalry weren't going to just charge into an enemy formation like in these games. You had infantry for that, and cavalry to hit the flanks in a pincer move. Battles were all about positioning to try to limit that cavalry assault as much as possible while allowing your own.

I have two very good books on medieval combat somewhere and I practice mounted combat myself every month. I don't remember too many details but I do remember the historians involved in writing these books did say cavalry wasn't used the way a lot of people think, nor was the dominance of cavalry quite so pronounced except for a smaller window of time earlier on in the medieval period.
It depends. it also depends on the specific period we're talking about. The time of Bannerlord with Eastern Roman cataphracts definitely had head-on assaults. Even at Hastings, you had head-on cavalry charges with the not-so heavily armored horses. At Carrhae, Parthian cataphracts attempted to crush the Roman lines. At Vienna, Jan Sobieski's hussars completely blew apart the Ottoman lines. The go-to move for the French at Agincourt was a (wildly unsuccessful) cavalry charge.

Much of the point of these heavy cavalry attacks right at the front is to completely ruin the cohesion and formation, with the infantry not far behind to engage the shattered formations, as opposed to getting into a prolonged melee with the enemy infantry. Or, they think they can make them run for it and then kill them as they rout.

A cohesive line is difficult to break with infantry and archers alone. It would likely take a tremendous effort and a lot of time for infantry to successfully break a large front of the infantry, even if they had a significant advantage. Rows of determined men can be difficult to simply rout with other normal men. Thus comes the point of heavy cavalry. If they are well-trained horses, well-trained horsemen, and well armored, and enough in number, it is very, very plausible that they can smash the enemy's front and effectively end the uncertainty of battle right there.

It would be easier to coordinate that than to pin down the infantry with your infantry and have the cavalry flank all the way around to the back. This wasn't very commonly achieved. Alexander the Great was a master of this tactic, and that's why he was so good; this hammer and anvil approach is difficult to pull off, and he knew how to do it. With most other commanders and armies, often the cavalry at the flanks would either be bested by opposing cavalry or forces, win and chase down the enemy cavalry going off elsewhere, or ending up doing something else entirely, like attacking supply trains, as opposed to attacking into that big scary area of people, as they are likely to still have protection for the flanks. It's not like the army commander can radio them, the cavalry is usually on their own at the point. People like to do the less dangerous options when it's their show now. Usually, decisive cavalry attacks to the flanks were well set up and well-coordinated far before the actual battle begins.

Most cavalry, (specifically light cavalry) throughout history were for, as you say, scouting, skirmishing, engaging enemy cavalry, dealing with archers, flanks, etc. This was also the bread and butter for cavalry after gunpowder ruined the usage of heavy cavalry. In a fair few periods in history, you had heavily armored cavalry that was highly trained and completely capable of crushing infantry formations from the front as well. But you are correct that the primary role of cavalry throughout history wasn't to smash open infantry lines. However, I do not think this was nearly as uncommon as you make it out to be.
 
Yeah Bannerlord is the early middle ages.

I'm waiting for a late middle ages mod like Warband's time period, and the Game Of Thrones mod which will probably take a while.
 
This fallacy that heavy cav didn't charge headlong into infantry is complete and utter bull****. There's a reason why the middle ages was dominated by knights and heavy cavalry, and it's not because they were used for flanking and skirmishing. It's because they would charge directly at the front line of an enemies formation and decimate, trample, and demolish everything in their path.
 
Frontal cav charge vs non-broken formation is more psychological that physical warfare in my opinion. If you do 4 almost charges and stop them in the last moment, fift one might by against actually broken formation and you dont have to stop it anymore. Anyway good luck implementing that.
 
This fallacy that heavy cav didn't charge headlong into infantry is complete and utter bull****. There's a reason why the middle ages was dominated by knights and heavy cavalry, and it's not because they were used for flanking and skirmishing. It's because they would charge directly at the front line of an enemies formation and decimate, trample, and demolish everything in their path.
I have three books that say the opposite. It did happen in the earlier middle ages (the time of this game actually) but by the later middle ages it was way too risky as battlefield tactics and discipline meant the heavy cavalry would be killed.

In the earlier middle ages especially the enemy infantry was mostly peasants with men-at-arms. They easy to rout with cavalry, and there is a famous battle where just a few French knights routed a much larger force of feudal peasants. Disciplined, trained, expensive heavy cavalry vs poorly armed peasants that don't want to be there is a rout. And if the battlefield conditions allowed for a devastating enemy cavalry charge the commander either did not position his forces properly or could not.

I'm a student of the later middle ages and renaissance and that's what I practice. A good, tight, disciplined cavalry charge could be devastating, but if it was against a disciplined line of infantry waiting for it the risk was too great, and the weapons used in defense became specialized against it (pike and crossbow then pike and musket). You didn't use cavalry as a throwaway unit.
 
This fallacy that heavy cav didn't charge headlong into infantry is complete and utter bull****. There's a reason why the middle ages was dominated by knights and heavy cavalry, and it's not because they were used for flanking and skirmishing. It's because they would charge directly at the front line of an enemies formation and decimate, trample, and demolish everything in their path.
Battle of Hastings, the Norman knights charged again and again and again at the Saxons shieldwall all day but never managed to break their formation until they feigned retreat and the Saxons willingly broke their own formation in pursuit of the enemy they saw as defeated only for the Normans to turn around and charge their now disorganized ranks followed close behind by their own infantry and ranged troops giving support.

Frontal cavalry charges were psychological warfare, a poorly disciplined infantry formation would most likely break and run for their lives when charged thus allowing the cavalry to trample and demolish them but a well disciplined infantry formation that didn't fell for this trick could absolute hold their ground for a long time.
 
Battle of Hastings, the Norman knights charged again and again and again at the Saxons shieldwall all day but never managed to break their formation until they feigned retreat and the Saxons willingly broke their own formation in pursuit of the enemy they saw as defeated only for the Normans to turn around and charge their now disorganized ranks followed close behind by their own infantry and ranged troops giving support.

Frontal cavalry charges were psychological warfare, a poorly disciplined infantry formation would most likely break and run for their lives when charged thus allowing the cavalry to trample and demolish them but a well disciplined infantry formation that didn't fell for this trick could absolute hold their ground for a long time.
At the battle of Dyrrhachium the Norman knights both failed to break the Varangian assault and then later succeeded with devastating effect in charges in the flank of the Byzantines, which if it was not exposed by the Varangians pushing ahead to assault the Norman right flank may not have fallen.

Yeah it's not too often that a direct frontal cavalry charge vs infantry that are expecting it and disciplined enough to hold succeeded.

In my online research here at work (since I don't have my books with me) I found this interesting post from a few years ago that mentions other battles where heavy cavalry were not successful. Like he says, under certain conditions heavy cavalry charges were devastating, but otherwise they were used in reserve and/or to charge a flank or an exposed weakness in the enemy lines.

lnNPdVs.jpg


How does this apply to Bannerlord? It doesn't :smile: This game is all about individual unit vs individual unit in small scale battles. But I wouldn't mind seeing something like Vlandian pikemen able to brace their (too short) pikes and either cause an incoming charge to stop or to punish it if it doesn't.

Yeah, pikes are too short. We have spears useable on horseback that are a lot longer than the pikes. But to be fair, pikes and pike formations were not a thing in the 800s-1000s in western europe. Still though, without that extra length the strength of something like a Vlandian pikeman formation is diminished. It would be a lot better if they used one of those spears with 230+ length IMO.
 
Again with the wasted breath over historical battles... Bannerlord does not have battles, it has tiny skirmishes with sprinkled-in, totally chaotic, reinforcements. Trying to use historical evidence to back-up any argument for improvement of Bannerlord's combat is a failure in understanding the vast differences in scale between historical battles and Bannerlord's combat.

In the context of Bannerlord, it makes a lot more sense to balance the combat around good gaming principles (even if they come off totally "gamey") than anything historical.
 
Again with the wasted breath over historical battles... Bannerlord does not have battles, it has tiny skirmishes with sprinkled-in, totally chaotic, reinforcements. Trying to use historical evidence to back-up any argument for improvement of Bannerlord's combat is a failure in understanding the vast differences in scale between historical battles and Bannerlord's combat.

In the context of Bannerlord, it makes a lot more sense to balance the combat around good gaming principles (even if they come off totally "gamey") than anything historical.
You saw that I said this right?

How does this apply to Bannerlord? It doesn't :smile: This game is all about individual unit vs individual unit in small scale battles.

and it's not easy to balance around that without more reactive AI.
 
At the battle of Dyrrhachium the Norman knights both failed to break the Varangian assault and then later succeeded with devastating effect in charges in the flank of the Byzantines, which if it was not exposed by the Varangians pushing ahead to assault the Norman right flank may not have fallen.

Yeah it's not too often that a direct frontal cavalry charge vs infantry that are expecting it and disciplined enough to hold succeeded.

In my online research here at work (since I don't have my books with me) I found this interesting post from a few years ago that mentions other battles where heavy cavalry were not successful. Like he says, under certain conditions heavy cavalry charges were devastating, but otherwise they were used in reserve and/or to charge a flank or an exposed weakness in the enemy lines.

lnNPdVs.jpg


How does this apply to Bannerlord? It doesn't :smile: This game is all about individual unit vs individual unit in small scale battles. But I wouldn't mind seeing something like Vlandian pikemen able to brace their (too short) pikes and either cause an incoming charge to stop or to punish it if it doesn't.

Yeah, pikes are too short. We have spears useable on horseback that are a lot longer than the pikes. But to be fair, pikes and pike formations were not a thing in the 800s-1000s in western europe. Still though, without that extra length the strength of something like a Vlandian pikeman formation is diminished. It would be a lot better if they used one of those spears with 230+ length IMO.
These things you point out prove that it has its shortcomings, not that it didn't really happen.
Battle of Hastings, the Norman knights charged again and again and again at the Saxons shieldwall all day but never managed to break their formation until they feigned retreat and the Saxons willingly broke their own formation in pursuit of the enemy they saw as defeated only for the Normans to turn around and charge their now disorganized ranks followed close behind by their own infantry and ranged troops giving support.
The Norman knights probably weren't the kind of heavy cavalry that was great at doing that. Nevertheless, what did they use them for in that battle? Frontal attacks. They aren't the end all be all, but they happened a fair amount throughout history.
Trying to use historical evidence to back-up any argument for improvement of Bannerlord's combat is a failure in understanding the vast differences in scale between historical battles and Bannerlord's combat.

In the context of Bannerlord, it makes a lot more sense to balance the combat around good gaming principles (even if they come off totally "gamey") than anything historical.
Nobody is misunderstanding anything about the differences. If we aren't basing this game on historical evidence, then what exactly are we basing this on? Teletubbies? You say it's better to base it on "good gaming principles". Why can't we have both? This idea that realism is inherently bad for a game is just nonsense.
 
Nobody is misunderstanding anything about the differences. If we aren't basing this game on historical evidence, then what exactly are we basing this on? Teletubbies? You say it's better to base it on "good gaming principles". Why can't we have both? This idea that realism is inherently bad for a game is just nonsense.
If you think you can use the same justifications that generated battlefield tactics for early middle ages warfare as supporting evidence for what should happen in a 500 v 500 skirmish in a tiny battle map amongst a bunch of bots then maybe I am the one wasting my (virtual) breath.
 
Alas, I did not, for some reason. Thank you for being a part of the "coalition for reason".
A lot of the discussion is just an enjoyment of the history. None of us (I hope) expect to see historically realistic battles in a game like this. Even Total War can't pull that off and that one comes closest IMO.

What I'd like to see personally is higher tier cavalry units with spears or lances all charging and attacking in unison, tier 5 pulling it off nicely and tier 6 noble units pulling it off perfectly. It would reflect their training and discipline. Lower tier cavalry can be a little more chaotic and out of sync.

Infantry with spears should brace if they have them, possibly causing the cavalry AI to stop and attempt a flank instead. Lower tier infantry without spears may flinch at the oncoming charge and spread out breaking ranks a bit, while higher tier infantry rarely do that.

I can't really expect much more than that. It's not that kind of game.
 
At the battle of Dyrrhachium the Norman knights both failed to break the Varangian assault and then later succeeded with devastating effect in charges in the flank of the Byzantines, which if it was not exposed by the Varangians pushing ahead to assault the Norman right flank may not have fallen.

Yeah it's not too often that a direct frontal cavalry charge vs infantry that are expecting it and disciplined enough to hold succeeded.

In my online research here at work (since I don't have my books with me) I found this interesting post from a few years ago that mentions other battles where heavy cavalry were not successful. Like he says, under certain conditions heavy cavalry charges were devastating, but otherwise they were used in reserve and/or to charge a flank or an exposed weakness in the enemy lines.

lnNPdVs.jpg


How does this apply to Bannerlord? It doesn't :smile: This game is all about individual unit vs individual unit in small scale battles. But I wouldn't mind seeing something like Vlandian pikemen able to brace their (too short) pikes and either cause an incoming charge to stop or to punish it if it doesn't.

Yeah, pikes are too short. We have spears useable on horseback that are a lot longer than the pikes. But to be fair, pikes and pike formations were not a thing in the 800s-1000s in western europe. Still though, without that extra length the strength of something like a Vlandian pikeman formation is diminished. It would be a lot better if they used one of those spears with 230+ length IMO.
I tried 6 metres long pikes in RBM and when pikemen braced them, they just aimed them too high and generally missed the incoming cav, now if they aimed them lower at horses instead of rider brace might actually be really usefull, right now its a gimmick, at least if you play with any mod that removes instakills vs armor from the game.
 
后退
顶部 底部