Spawning of hight tier Armor

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MakinTorf

Veteran
yes, i know there are a lot and you can get them everywhere if you just go from city to city but i am right now playing 6 ingame years and i want my clan with companions to have the same armor and the same look.
there are a lot of noble bows i can get everywhere and everytime, the weapons are not the problem. even boots and shoulders are not the problem, only helmets and chest armors.

yes, i was smithing a lot and i am now at nearly 900 day ingame. i just cant find the sturgain armro (coat of plates) and the helmet (sultans steel cap). i was waiting and doing adn so on but i only got in this 900 day 6 of these helmets and 4 of the chest armors.

yes, i accept that some armors are very rare and some are rare but this is just redicilous. i just cant get for everyone the same armor even if i like it. even the khuzait arrows are spawning more.
 

Midnitewolf

Sergeant
The issue is with how production works. Those high end armors and helms are just too expensive for a city to produce which is why you never see them on anyone but a lord. Also I think there are some really high end swords that also don't ever spawn because of this. I my mind this has been a major issue since very early in the EA.

Just a suggestion. Try a mod or set of mods that increases the prosperity of cities. Once a City has about 12-13k prosperity they seem to start spawning some of the good things but you will never see that kind of prosperity out of Native. The downside is that the mods that allow cities to have this level of prosperity might break the balance of the game a bit.
 

Kyias

Recruit
I thought armor production was based off City Prosperity? If this is the case, I am noticing towns are not recovering since the last patch due to pillaging. Sargot in my game was down to nearly 1k prosperity from it.
 

MakinTorf

Veteran
yeah, found out that prosperity is one factor.

so i will just test something:
selling them 10 javs per city and wait a week.
 

Midnitewolf

Sergeant
I thought armor production was based off City Prosperity? If this is the case, I am noticing towns are not recovering since the last patch due to pillaging. Sargot in my game was down to nearly 1k prosperity from it.
Its all tied together which in my mind is the major issue. From what I understand is that If your city isn't prosperous enough, the shops can't afford to buy the materials necessary to produce the high tier items. Also another reason the high tiered items don't show up until late game if at all is that the artisans have to learn to make the items much like the player has to learn to smith.

So the result is just having a spike of high prosperity for a short period of time isn't enough for them to make high tiered gear, instead the city has to have high prosperity for long enough for the artisans to actually learn to make the high tiered items in the first place.

It is a crazy complex system and while I applaud the ambition, it doesn't work. It would have been much easier and simpler for them to just spawn in items to the trader off a list to ensure there was a good balance of items to buy. This would have allowed them to better control pricing and balance the economy and allow for us to get other than trash loot from battles since the biggest reason we can't get good items from looting is the outrageous prices of even mid range gear. Basically we are only allowed like 10,000 gold worth of loot and when a mid range helmet will sell for 35,000 to a vendor, well its outright banded from the loot list of items we can receive.

So a big, complex and ultimate broken system and the only way around it, even with a mod is to pretty much break the economy more than it is already broken.
 

Midnitewolf

Sergeant
yeah, found out that prosperity is one factor.

so i will just test something:
selling them 10 javs per city and wait a week.
I am not sure selling them items actually helps a city grow. From what I have seen, if I sell my battle loot over and over to the same city, I just eat up the cities available gold which might actually make prosperity go down. I mean if they are using all their gold to buy trash from me, they can't actually buy trade good that enrich the city. I don't know if this is the case but I think it might be.
 

MakinTorf

Veteran
i never watched the prosperity of cities because i always started every new beta a new game and never got to the point to have my own kingdom, but i read here that many people have problem with it and their cities just have 1000 prosperity, the most cities i visited and bought the good armor and weapons and selled my javs for, have 6000 and more prosperity.
i have no idea if this is high or normal.
 

Midnitewolf

Sergeant
i never watched the prosperity of cities because i always started every new beta a new game and never got to the point to have my own kingdom, but i read here that many people have problem with it and their cities just have 1000 prosperity, the most cities i visited and bought the good armor and weapons and selled my javs for, have 6000 and more prosperity.
i have no idea if this is high or normal.
Well like I said I don't know for sure so I am not saying your wrong.

As far as prosperity, I use a ton of mods. I have Food Prosperity Balance Mod which makes it so a city doesn't starve but rather just adjusts its prosperity to the available food. More income and more production Mod which helps add to production, Extended Production mod which if I recall correctly adds a higher chance for the higher tiered items to spawn and finally Bannerlord Tweaks to basically give each city plentiful food which increases prosperity. With these mods the cities that are way out of the way and don't get raided much can get obscene prosperity levels. I think I have seen one city reach 21k prosperity one time and had a few more at 15-18k prosperity. However even with this mods it took around 300 days to start seeing a few of the better (not best) items spawn and I still never was able to get real top tier items like many of the lords use to spawn.

The whole system is just broken if you ask me. Just give trades a list of items and have items from the list spawn randomly at traders. Simple and effective.
 

Bannerman Man

C# Sleuth
Knight
Equipment spawning is no longer tied to the amount of money a town has (and therefore not tied to prosperity either). That was changed a few patches ago.

When a workshop has done enough work to "produce" a certain type of equipment at a particular tier, then it randomly selects an item of the correct culture from a list based on the base value of the item. It's a weighted random, so more expensive items are selected less often than less expensive items. The most expensive armors in the game belong to the category "ultra armor," and some of the highest quality armors in that category are really expensive compared to the other lower quality items, so they are rarely selected to be created as a result.

For "ultra" tier armor, it takes both Artisan and Smithy workshops 10 days to produce one piece of equipment from that category, so those armors don't get as many chances to spawn, further increasing their rarity. Also, if the workshop does not have enough of the required raw goods to use as inputs, the production gets wasted and starts over.

The devs have plans at some point to change the pricing structure of equipment so that the highest quality items are not as expensive, so as a result, those armors will be created by workshops more often after it's implemented.
 

Antaeus

Veteran
In 1.5.8 higher tier armour spawns more frequently, probably as a consequence of how fewer sieges/snowballs and raids allow for better growth and build up of resources.

It is not uncommon to go to a city, particularly a core city away from raided frontiers to see 3 or 4 100-200K items in stock. I haven't seen top tier empire armour, but I have seen the full gamut of 200K javelins, helmets, non-imperial noble level armour etc.

But I imagine you will need to start a new game in 1.5.8 to see this, which means also dealing with the image loading bug.
 

MakinTorf

Veteran
For "ultra" tier armor, it takes both Artisan and Smithy workshops 10 days to produce one piece of equipment from that category, so those armors don't get as many chances to spawn, further increasing their rarity. Also, if the workshop does not have enough of the required raw goods to use as inputs, the production gets wasted and starts over.
i thought about to just buying smithing workshops in the sturgian citys but didnt know that they need the material.
i will just sell my refined metal to them and i hope it will help.

It is not uncommon to go to a city, particularly a core city away from raided frontiers to see 3 or 4 100-200K items in stock. I haven't seen top tier empire armour, but I have seen the full gamut of 200K javelins, helmets, non-imperial noble level armour etc.
the problem is not that i dont spot high tier armors, the problem is i dont get exactly those armor pieces i want.

like i wrote in the beginning, i only found this exact armor only 4 times and its not even the best sturgian armor exists.

there are just to many different armor types in the game i guess and just have to have luck....
 

Antaeus

Veteran
the problem is not that i dont spot high tier armors, the problem is i dont get exactly those armor pieces i want.

So an analogy... right now you go into a supermarket and choose from what is available - there is variation, but stock isn't chosen by you. But what you want is to make sure the supermarket has your favourite brand of ketchup - even if it is a special import from Alaska.

If I understand you?

Perhaps you just need to buy the right workshops in your favourite city to ensure they exist - making sure that city also has the right villages, and start filling that city with the right resources to give your favourite armours more chances to be made? Take a bit of control over the situation.
 

Midnitewolf

Sergeant
Equipment spawning is no longer tied to the amount of money a town has (and therefore not tied to prosperity either). That was changed a few patches ago.

When a workshop has done enough work to "produce" a certain type of equipment at a particular tier, then it randomly selects an item of the correct culture from a list based on the base value of the item. It's a weighted random, so more expensive items are selected less often than less expensive items. The most expensive armors in the game belong to the category "ultra armor," and some of the highest quality armors in that category are really expensive compared to the other lower quality items, so they are rarely selected to be created as a result.

For "ultra" tier armor, it takes both Artisan and Smithy workshops 10 days to produce one piece of equipment from that category, so those armors don't get as many chances to spawn, further increasing their rarity. Also, if the workshop does not have enough of the required raw goods to use as inputs, the production gets wasted and starts over.

The devs have plans at some point to change the pricing structure of equipment so that the highest quality items are not as expensive, so as a result, those armors will be created by workshops more often after it's implemented.

This still seems such a needlessly complex system that it boggles my mind. I mean I am glad that they are working on getting better items to show up and all but so much is tied to this production system and all of it is broken.

We will still have to wait years in game before the better loots can be acquired and this "ultra" tier armor still might not show up. Also even if it is less expensive, we aren't allowed to loot any of it because less expensive doesn't mean worth less than 10k denars which I believe is the maximum value of loot we are allow to get out of a battle.

I still say going the simple, less complex route of having a list of stuff that can randomly spawn in the trader window at pricing that can be set independent of raw material availability and production would work better and be more fun and I wouldn't have to wait 600 in game days to see the best armor show up for sale. Same with after battle loot. I am so tired of broken this, worn that, shattered blah. I want a helm, piece of armor or a weapon that I would want to use on my own character or companion to show up fairly regularity in my after battle loot especially if I am playing with death enabled and no way to retrieve items I placed my my companions if they died.
 

Midnitewolf

Sergeant
So an analogy... right now you go into a supermarket and choose from what is available - there is variation, but stock isn't chosen by you. But what you want is to make sure the supermarket has your favourite brand of ketchup - even if it is a special import from Alaska.

If I understand you?

Perhaps you just need to buy the right workshops in your favourite city to ensure they exist - making sure that city also has the right villages, and start filling that city with the right resources to give your favourite armours more chances to be made? Take a bit of control over the situation.

You know some people don't want to have to rig the production system to buy a set of armor right? The would rather have those armors show up regularly for sale, buy them and then get back to playing the game the way they enjoy it. It is way too much to expect a player to have to micromanage that many different things just to possibly get a higher tiered set of armor or weapons.

Also, lets talk about something called realism which is actually somewhat important to a simulation type of game. Then once you talk about realism ask yourself how absurd is it to even think that a Lord would buy a smithy, a wood shop and a jeweler shop, then transport tons and tons of iron and wood and other precious metals/gems to the general market, just in hopes of that a collaboration of the Smithy, Wood Shop and Jeweler, would buy those resources and maybe, possibly, eventually, might just make a Lordly Helm of a design he likes? Ridiculous right?

No, a Lord would go to a master smith which any large city would likely have and commission a set of armor or weapons of custom fit and design and just have it made for him. He definitely wouldn't go to the local Walmart to browse the wares and on the off chance that they general market might have something that fits him, looked stylish and was of better quality than he already owned.

Seriously, this stuff just need to show up in the shops without any special requirements to make it show up.
 

Antaeus

Veteran
You know some people don't want to have to rig the production system to buy a set of armor right? The would rather have those armors show up regularly for sale, buy them and then get back to playing the game the way they enjoy it. It is way too much to expect a player to have to micromanage that many different things just to possibly get a higher tiered set of armor or weapons.

Also, lets talk about something called realism which is actually somewhat important to a simulation type of game. Then once you talk about realism ask yourself how absurd is it to even think that a Lord would buy a smithy, a wood shop and a jeweler shop, then transport tons and tons of iron and wood and other precious metals/gems to the general market, just in hopes of that a collaboration of the Smithy, Wood Shop and Jeweler, would buy those resources and maybe, possibly, eventually, might just make a Lordly Helm of a design he likes? Ridiculous right?

No, a Lord would go to a master smith which any large city would likely have and commission a set of armor or weapons of custom fit and design and just have it made for him. He definitely wouldn't go to the local Walmart to browse the wares and on the off chance that they general market might have something that fits him, looked stylish and was of better quality than he already owned.

Seriously, this stuff just need to show up in the shops without any special requirements to make it show up.
All fair comments...

But the way I see it is to use an analogy, comparing a used 1991 Toyota Corolla (the armour you just stole off that Sea Raider) to a brand new Lamborghini Aventador. The Corolla was mass produced in one of dozens of production plants across the world, 30 years ago. The Lamborghini was hand made to order in a single small studio in Italy. The car analogy goes further, as we're talking about similar differences in price. You wont find them for sale in the same place. In fact, to get the Lamborghini, you'll need to go on a wait list and probably have to fly to Italy to collect it.

A medieval equivalent, The likes of King Henry VIII might have been able to afford a famous Italian armourer to come to England and make his custom armour. The most wealthy dukes or earls might have been able to commission armourers in Northern France or Germany make armour for them. The other major dukes and earls would have had to buy the best local artisan made. The lesser nobility, knights and barons and best professional soldiers might buy mass produced high quality. The remainder would have been provided with off the shelf mass produced brigandine made from left over or battle recycled junk. Again, you'll never get all those things in the same place. If you're rich enough, the artisan will come to you, but Henry had to liquidate the church to be able to afford some of his excesses. That's not something your average Vlandian Baron could do.

So perhaps what we need, isn't to have the best armour always or often for sale, but rather have it craftable. We could roughly copy the 'hired master from the continent' effect by having expensive companions who have top tier crafting skills to make the armour for you.
 
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Midnitewolf

Sergeant
All fair comments...

But the way I see it is to use an analogy, comparing a used 1991 Toyota Corolla (the armour you just stole off that Sea Raider) to a brand new Lamborghini Aventador. The Corolla was mass produced in one of dozens of production plants across the world, 30 years ago. The Lamborghini was hand made to order in a single small studio in Italy. The car analogy goes further, as we're talking about similar differences in price. You wont find them for sale in the same place. In fact, to get the Lamborghini, you'll need to go on a wait list and probably have to fly to Italy to collect it.

A medieval equivalent, The likes of King Henry VIII might have been able to afford a famous Italian armourer to come to England and make his custom armour. The most wealthy dukes or earls might have been able to commission armourers in Northern France or Germany make armour for them. The other major dukes and earls would have had to buy the best local artisan made. The lesser nobility, knights and barons and best professional soldiers might buy mass produced high quality. The remainder would have been provided with off the shelf mass produced brigandine made from left over or battle recycled junk. Again, you'll never get all those things in the same place. If you're rich enough, the artisan will come to you, but Henry had to liquidate the church to be able to afford some of his excesses. That's not something your average Vlandian Baron could do.

So perhaps what we need, isn't to have the best armour always or often for sale, but rather have it craftable. We could roughly copy the 'hired master from the continent' effect by having expensive companions who have top tier crafting skills to make the armour for you.

I would counter that while you do have a point about the difference in price between a Corolla and a Lambo, but a better comparions would be between a simple functional set of armor (The Corolla) and a highly decorated show piece armor with intricate engravings, gold inlays and studded with jewels. (The Lambo). Both armors would be made of steel, functional and serve the same purpose, just one looks prettier than the other.

So yeah sure, we could have some super intricate armors only available from crafting or super rare and expensive from traders but anything your troops are wearing, even the tier 5 and 6 ones, you should have access to as well. I mean if you can put together a force of 20+ Elite Imperial Cataphracts, it just makes sense that as a Lord, you would be able to outfit yourself with at least the same level of gear as them and do it pretty easily.
 

Kyias

Recruit
I do hate it when a random cavalry guy looks better than my companion lol. Just want to look at them and be like:
“You two...switch uniforms”
 
The ability to craft armor would be the best solution.

It would also give you incentives to possess trade goods like leather and furs.

Hell I would even have the requirement to have tools potentially as part of the process.

Give us the 5 tiers like weapons and as you unlock the recipes you can create the better armors. Maybe even make it unlike the weapons with multiple components have it so you have to unlock all of the level 1 armors before you can create level 2.
 
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