Spartans seem weak against Thracians.

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tFighterPilot

Sergeant at Arms
I'm playing with Sparta, and went into a large ongoing battle of hell of a lot of Spartans versus around a hundred Thracians. We won at the end, but most of what I saw during the battle was light and dark purple text. It seems like spears are no match for swords in close combat.
 
Well, what did you expect?

There are already a few suggestions for tactical decisions while playing against Thracians...

But units with spears generally lose against units with swords, in nearly every game... And for a good reason, too.
 
Spears just tend to suck in Mount and Blade. You need a certain amount of distance to use them if it's not the type that you can swing.
 
The problem is Sparta don't have the morale, formation and discipline as real so they really weaker than what they have to
 
I disagree 100%

Playing as the Athenians I have never lost a battle against the Thracians or seen any of my fellow commanders lose one.  Are you forming into a hoplite (default: J)?  What I do is let the formations whack at each other until the Thracians have been mangled and then just have them charge out of formation.  I lose maybe 10/350 ... max.
 
That's all nice and good, but what if you have allies of lesser mind in the battle, or if you're attacking a castle?
 
I have fought with thracians against Spartans and it was a tought battle, i had to make flanking tactics with peltast to defeat them and i have a lot of casualities (thanks to god many was only wounded). I think that people believe that spartans was invincibles, but it wasnt. They had the best hoplites in Greece, but his problem was that they were very traditional in tactics, the peltast imported from thracian and new tactics as the theban phalanx were able to take advantage of traditional phalanx weakness to dereat them

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Lechaeum

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Leuctra
 
Something really must be done here. My peltasts manage to kill more enemies in close combat than my hoplites, even though there are less of them. And they are in formation.
 
Firstly, Spartans may have been the best hoplites in Greece, but the difference wasn't that huge, especially on a individual level. Much of the Spartan's efficiency came from the fact that they were almost all, as Thucydides states, officers of some kind, and that their discipline and cohesion were peerless. On an individual level, a Spartan was a very well trained, physically fit, soldier--nothing more and nothing less. In terms of personnal fighting skills, other elite units matched or even outclassed the average Spartan, and the Spartan's own elites, while certainly top-notch, were by no means superhuman, and could be matched by "normal" men. In fact Spartan society and education was not as unique as it is often made out as being; Lykurgos, the Spartan law-giver, took his inspiration from Crete, and if he added anything original it was a rationalisation of an existing system, not a pure invention.

Secondly, the phalanx is a primarily defensive formation. Phalanx battles are a slow grind until one breaks; when used as part of a combined-arms strategy, the phalanx is the anvil on which you break your opponent. The strength of the hoplites is their steadfastness, and the seeming invulnerability provided by their shield wall. They were not known for ferocious and bloody charges, but for their staying power. There's no reason why they should be the main killers in a mixed force.

Thirdly, yes, there is an inherent problem with thrusts in M&B.
 
Cirdan 说:
In terms of personnal fighting skills, other elite units matched or even outclassed the average Spartan, and the Spartan's own elites, while certainly top-notch, were by no means superhuman, and could be matched by "normal" men.

Uhh... no. Spartans were the most superior (line) unit of the period. When together (and more so in a Phalanx), they "outclassed" (as you put it) most any other foot infantry soldier (spear/sword) of the region. This is a documented fact based upon their effectiveness and soldier loss ratios.

Now with that said... I'm not sure if it's the mod or the game, but it reacts in a very odd way when it comes to spearmen. I want to blame the game mechanics itself because even the Native guys are a bit screwy. If you take a line of spears, horses and infantry should find it hard to get through. But it seems like my Spartans get steamrolled. I've mentioned this in another thread. The fact that they step back and shift position (which is the game not the mod) to confront the enemy doesn't help matters either. I end up getting a lot of enemy troops behind my line.

I opened up the troops in the mod and looked at them and the stats really aren't all that different between one another. Nothing really exceeds statwise on any other troop of the same type. Will that affect their effectiveness on the field? I'm not so sure. I think the problem is with the mechanics of the game in how it treats spearmen. But I think the Spartans should be the most effective against your basic infantry, and less effective against archers, and horsemen.
 
Lord Shields 说:
Cirdan 说:
In terms of personnal fighting skills, other elite units matched or even outclassed the average Spartan, and the Spartan's own elites, while certainly top-notch, were by no means superhuman, and could be matched by "normal" men.

Uhh... no. Spartans were the most superior (line) unit of the period. When together (and more so in a Phalanx), they "outclassed" (as you put it) most any other foot infantry soldier (spear/sword) of the region. This is a documented fact based upon their effectiveness and soldier loss ratios.
Actually...yes.

Want examples?
When the Spartans and Argives decided to settle the fate of Thyrea by having three hundred champions of each state fight, two Argives survived, versus only one Spartan. Sure, the Spartan slept on the field while his opponents rushed off to celebrate, but in terms of effectiveness and losses, the Spartans had been beaten. When the Spartans first invaded Tegea, those that were unlucky enough to be taken alive were put in the shackles they themselves brought, the rest being either dead or running away screaming like little girls. They may not have surrendered in a long time before Sphakteria, but they got their asses handed to them almost as often as the next guys.
 
The power of the Spartans was their moral, and the ability  to psychological destroy their opponents.  Even the simple things they did such as how they prepared for battle, shifted into their fighting stance, and their marching songs were designed to inspire fear in their enemies and courage in their allies.

The Spartans were powerful because they mastered psychological warfare.
 
look in reality the spartan not only carried a spear but a sword to which is what they are missing in this mod they are great where they are at they just need to have a backup weapon a.k.a. a sword
 
Dtay08 说:
look in reality the spartan not only carried a spear but a sword to which is what they are missing in this mod they are great where they are at they just need to have a backup weapon a.k.a. a sword

That wouldn't work. If that were the case, they would thrust with their spear once and then switch to the sword when the enemy walks forward a few steps. What needs to be fixed is the formation script so that they stand very close together and they can use their shields to help eachother and their spears to attack the enemy. It would be best if they tried to stay in formation and the second and third line in the phalanx put their weapons forward too realistically.
 
kgable10 说:
Dtay08 说:
look in reality the spartan not only carried a spear but a sword to which is what they are missing in this mod they are great where they are at they just need to have a backup weapon a.k.a. a sword

That wouldn't work. If that were the case, they would thrust with their spear once and then switch to the sword when the enemy walks forward a few steps. What needs to be fixed is the formation script so that they stand very close together and they can use their shields to help eachother and their spears to attack the enemy. It would be best if they tried to stay in formation and the second and third line in the phalanx put their weapons forward too realistically.

eh smart they should get some kind of phalanx like in rome total war butu a sword could be usefull
 
Kiivit 说:
The Phalanxes in RTW are distinctively Macedonian :smile:.

i was watching the history channel and the spear wasnt the best thing the spartan had it was his sword which without the spartans wouldnt have been so good as because the phalanx can be outflanked so you must break phalanx and get out your sword for some real hand to hand combat at that it was on the battle of thermopylae which there was not only 300 spartans but 7000 greek hoplites and skirnmishers(javelin/peltists)
 
Ya but the point is that with this game engine you can't make it so that the hoplites draw their swords only when they are outflanked.
 
eh mirathei prob could do that if he wanted to i mean he did so much dont you think he could do something like that and i mean not only outflanke but i mean when they get upclose on there shields they should pull out there swords.
 
Ya. When the enemy gets too close they should draw their swords, while the ones behind them still thrust their spears.
 
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