source code, or: suggeston for an "implemented suggestions" forum.

Users who are viewing this thread

mtarini

Sergeant Knight
Sorry if this has been debated before, I could not find anything.

Here: from time to time, I really wish I could play with the source code.

There are many reasons not to go open-source. I understand that.

- it would conflict with the struggle against piracy (makes very easy to distribute a complete and free version)

- M&B authors [let them be prised] are should protect their work, and BTW they deserve to get paid a lot more that they presumably are. I myself shoud probably buy a second licence, considering how much (and for how long) I've been playing this addictive drug of a game.

- The source code could well be (or maybe not, I've no no idea) in an extremely unpolished state, full of difficult-to-explain hacks, with hardly any documentation and badly commented. Giving the source would also triggers hordes of fans asking for explanations and complaining about not being able to complie or understand it.

- players, and modding community, (and me) would feel very uneasy with the idea of many conflicting versions with no clear "established version" (aargh).



So going opensource is not an option. Right. However, I also think that providing the source would:

- provide a way to actually HELP;

- make bug-fixes, improvements, and new features implemented faster;

- provide those among us that can code and are willing to do so the possibility to show their proposed changes in a very convincing way:
"forum readers: here is an exe, try what I mean - developers: here is the code, please consider using it";




For one, I would have been tempted to do that, multiple times.

For example I've been horribly annoyed by that "arrow-hits-ground-before-guy-in-front-of-it-when-low-fps" bug for a long time (until renewed the computer) and I would have joyfully fixed that bug myself rather than living with that for yet another battle.

I came to think many small additions and mini-features, as well as larger ones (no, not the moddalbe kind), but I knew that just submitting a request for a change would be most likely ignored (not Armagans' fault, I know).

Providing the authors with a code modification and the community with an exec to try out would be a way to share your views in a easy-to-include-in-the-next-release way.




Proposal: maybe institute a "worshipping, subjugated sub-Dev team" (WSSDT). Its trusted members have a (limited?) access to the source code, having signed in blood all sorts of non disclosure agreements, plus an extra "I will never complain" form, and they would post in a special forum ("implemented suggestions"), possibly a strictly moderated one.

Your thoughs?
Do you see a way to make something like this possible without harming authors interests?
Does anyone else share my wish to work on the code of this magnificent game?



[Disclaimer: I never intended anything on the lines of sharing the profits.]

[PS: posted this here because I don't think it is a suggestion for the game itself, but rather a question and a proposal for the project]

[minor edits: spell-checking, grammar]
 
Problem is, if the source code is *anywhere* then there is a large chance that hackers will get at it.

An easier way would be for the devs to put more stuff into the module system (ie, giving nearly full access to the game engine), which would still allow complete control, but stop pirates and warez kiddies changing all the vitals to get a free game.
 
Well, from the sound of it they will be making nearly everything exposed to modders so that being the case the game logic itself will not be in binary files.  This is pretty much the ideal all around and lets you mod and see what's going on without any need for the compiled sources or for any knowledge of c++ even.

 
Source available for a commercial game? If the software/game in question is not being sold, then yeah, open sourcing it can often be a good thing. But I just don't see it making any sense whatsoever for a commercial product such as M&B to give their source to anyone not on the dev team.

Quite a lot of the game script and so forth is available through the official module system as the above two posters have mentioned, so with that you have a fair bit to play with. As you have said, there are some things which would require access to the source, but I just don't see that ever happening.
 
What if everything was in the module system, except for the copy protection and other secret things? That would let the more talented modders *glances at winter and yoshiboy* make new, and amazing developments, ie formations. If I can remember, Winter has already made some form of formation by utilising hundereds of lines of code.
 
Cymro said:
What if everything was in the module system, except for the copy protection and other secret things? That would let the more talented modders *glances at winter and yoshiboy* make new, and amazing developments, ie formations. If I can remember, Winter has already made some form of formation by utilising hundereds of lines of code.

That is what is planned for the version after next, according to daegoth.  As much as possible, anyhow.  That is a very good thing!
 
If i was armagan i wouldn't let the source code out of my sight for anyone, hes clearly got a sucessful business going here and i don't want that be ****ed up for any reason. I'm perfectly happy with the moddability of M&B as it is at the moment. Trust me, as the game progresses things will not get easier, only more complecated. And I don't know python or C++ or whatever M&B was programmed in :wink:
 
Are to trying to say that you made RPG Mod in the Unofficial Editor? Go on. You can't hold the truth back :razz:
 
Yes, the "code" that m&b modders use is not really python.  There are just python scripts that compile the lists of numbers and strings in the module files into more compact lists of numbers and strings that the game reads.

Anyway don't worry, I can assure you there will be quite a bit more moddability in the future  :wink:
 
bryce777 said:
Cymro said:
What if everything was in the module system, except for the copy protection and other secret things? That would let the more talented modders *glances at winter and yoshiboy* make new, and amazing developments, ie formations. If I can remember, Winter has already made some form of formation by utilising hundereds of lines of code.

That is what is planned for the version after next, according to daegoth.  As much as possible, anyhow.  That is a very good thing!

If that is true I'm very happy, because I too would love to play around with the source, or at least the parts we are allowed to see.
 
mtarini said:
Sorry if this has been debated before, I could not find anything.

Here: from time to time, I really wish I could play with the source code.

There are many reasons not to go open-source. I understand that.

Wake up !

There is only ONE reason to release source code and going open source

If your company meet all the following criteria, you go open source:

(a) you have ton of money to pay high class lawyers
(b) you got the extra staff to built an obfuscated version of the code
  (err ... if you don't know what that is, you should not even start talking about open source)
(c) you have something to GAIN from going open source, usually by incorporating the new open source code produced and/or happily buying some high quality mod (counterstrike) - and that POWER of incorporation is included in your fine print

otherwise companies NEVER go open source. It's a dream, an illusion, a non existant vaporware

Open-sourcing is EXTREMELY PROFITABLE for hardware company. Think about it, you still sell the hardware, you never pay the programmers


Otherwise what would happen ? Someone just grab the mount & blade source code, refilter all the textures to give them a slight purple shade, pass all the models in the blender to give them a slight bumpiness ... (that's enought to validate x% difference and make it different .... it's would take expensive lawsuit to fight a case like this, doubt armagan got the funds)

... finally you stamp it and call it saddles & swords

I'm exagerating only a little here. Massive texture changes / model changes can be done automatically with the right tools. they would be still recognizable but quite different. even watermark can be removed.

Personally I hope Armagan don't go for that unless he really need to. His company is to small to handle the legalities that goes with it.


[BTW they deserve to get paid a lot more that they presumably are]

Err from what understand they already sold over 100 K copies, that could be over 1 million $ after taxes ... not bad for two peoples. I think they're totally ok on that side. But that sum is small to build a company. It could be even better depending what country they live in and what's the cost of life there. Anyway, it's well deserved, but I don't think we need to worry about them.

I disagree on the part where open source allow to help. I've been a team leader. Small hghly qualified team are far more efficient than large dispersed team. Compare Mount & Blade to Oblivion. Can you believe it took nearly 100 peoples to build Oblivion ? And most of the wow ! effect come in fact from the graphic card ... otherwise it get ugly fast even on relatively recent machines ? The optimisation was absolutely awfull. And the beauty only the produce of an army of artists working in a sweat shop. Man, the guy who did the sound said he had to go without sleep on some days... a bit weird for a 3 years projects with 100 peoples ...

bessides unless you're a real computer wizard I doubt you can help Armagan, I got a master in computer graphiics (the software engineer part, not the artist side) and I can tell you he knows his stuff inside out. He's pretty impressive for a single person doing all the coding. More than likely you would slow him down.

bugs are exponentially proportional to the number of programers and inversely proportional to their degree of expertise.

Anyway, if you are really serious, the best thing, if you don't have the courage to start your own thing, would be to build a demo of whatever mini feature you got in mind and send that to the man himself. FYI if you are top level I'm sure he wouldn't mind sharing profit. But programmers of Armagan level are a rare thing.

[Janus][Source available for a commercial game? If the software/game in question is not being sold, then yeah, open sourcing it can often be a good thing. But I just don't see it making any sense whatsoever for a commercial product such as M&B to give their source to anyone not on the dev team.]

It's been done (ID Software), but what they release is an obfuscated version. Optimisations removed and code scrambled to the point of being cumbersome. It's usually done years after release and as a teaching tools to help promising/aspiring programers learn the trade, in the hope of employing them.

Sometime more than that get open for other purpose. but it's done by big companies who can actually profit from that practice in some way. And they make sure they got about a 1-kilometer-legal-armour protectiong them :razz:  This mean hard to remove watermark on all the assets, seeds in the code for the pupose of identification (really hard to understand piece of code that seem essential, are nearly ipossible to remove, serve absolutely no purpose except identifying the code in a legal suit)








 
I do not believe you understand the concept of open source... Nobody ever said they have to choose e.g. GPL as their license. Their license could forbid you to release anything to the public without their permission.

Nobody ever said that the copy protection mechanism would have to be removed.

open source does not always mean to give away your product for free, it just means you let other people look at the source and possibly contribute.
 
argh said:
I do not believe you understand the concept of open source... Nobody ever said they have to choose e.g. GPL as their license. Their license could forbid you to release anything to the public without their permission.

Nobody ever said that the copy protection mechanism would have to be removed.

open source does not always mean to give away your product for free, it just means you let other people look at the source and possibly contribute.
No, indeed it doesn't. But as Astarsis said, it would be very hard and expensive to protect the source, both codewise and courtwise, so it can't be stolen and re-released.
 
As we said. Make everything (except copy protection) available to the Module System. That way, there will be no chance of people re-releasing a standalone game without Ikisoft knowing.
 
Back
Top Bottom