Some little thoughts on TW slowness and a little comparation

[Andrei[beast]]

'Aight, so... I'll have to divide this into 2 parts from the beginning to avoid confusion. Also, mods, this will be a big comparison to other titles so if it's not permitted i can understand locking the thread.
TLDR: The studio I'm talking about has no investors and are the developers and publishers of their own game and no one is rushing them, same case as TW.
1. Comparison
I wanted to express some thoughts i recently had while following the development of a game I'm waiting and I'm very excited for, a sequel to one of my favourites games of all time, that being Dying Light. The studio that made the game, Techland is an independent studio, meaning they develop and publish their game, without outside influence like from investors or publishers. They worked on their game for quite some time and said it'll probably arrive in 2020 but they cancelled it and postponed the release. Now, people are getting mad, and especially after the release of Cyberpunk they want the game to heal their cravings for a new game( i said new, don't mean disrespect towards CB, i know some people like it). The thing is with Cyberpunk that it was mostly rushed by investors(understandable really).
Video that inspired me to the thread and made me understand how it is a bit tied to TW
Now, Techland themselves announced on their official Twitter and discord server that being an independent studio means no investor rushes them and they can take their time on working on their game to make it reach their visions. Now, maybe this last part might seem familiar regarding TW which brings me to part 2:
2.Bannerlord and Taleworlds
The difference is that Taleworlds released their game into early access, which is understandable as there is a big difference between the 2 games, as Bannerlord is a much more bug threatened game. Now the answer that i think of when seeing TW's slowness at updates is that them, just as Techland are not rushed by investors or publishers as Bannerlord is developed and published by themselves( for warband they had Paradox but some time later they got their rights and now they are the publishers receiving all the profits). Here's the clip where i found out that there are no investors and explained the parting from Paradox(still it can't be confirmed)
By now, we can see that the EA period will probably get prolonged and I would agree with it happening, but no one says development will stop after the full release.
Now yes, i understand that nothing I listed will explain the lack of communication but that was explained by Mexxico a while back and I'll search for it and quote it if everyone asks.

Edit: I know this will probably turn to some kind of argument, maybe not that bad but please let's keep this civilised.

 

[babelfisch]

I guess there are several reasons for slow updates:

1. Global pandemic (working from home office)
2. No investors (forcing them to release a rushed but flawed game)
3. Internal structures (they aren't new as a company but were quite small for the most time, adding people doesn't make development faster)
4. Complexity of the mechanics (if they change X it's almost guaranteed to affect Y)
5. Armagan seems to be a nice guy (probably reason #1)

 

[Andrei[beast]]

I guess there are several reasons for slow updates:

1. Global pandemic (working from home office)
2. No investors (forcing them to release a rushed but flawed game)
3. Internal structures (they aren't new as a company but were quite small for the most time, adding people doesn't make development faster)
4. Complexity of the mechanics (if they change X it's almost guaranteed to affect Y)
5. Armagan seems to be a nice guy (probably reason #1)

1. yes, I forgot to add but i meant this more as a comparison and hope it's permitted.
2. This i know, mentioned it and still understand the point of it.
3. Here i haven't researched the othher company's employee counter so yeah, my bad at that point.
4. Absolutely, there are big differences between the game types, as in the one i mentioned just adding let's say wall jumping wouldn't affect that many other features, as in BL the rebellions have a big impact on other features(but we do have the barber or other features that don't impact that much)
5. I don't really know how this would tie to everything else, but yea, seems nice.

 

[Terco_Viejo]

I think you've gathered too many points. Obviously developing without a publisher rushing you is an experience for those who design much more pleasantly, nobody likes crushtime. On the other hand, you have to take into account that we are in an unprecedented scenario; the covid pandemic and I don't know to what extent Taleworlds has been affected, but they have been.
The pace of development is relative; as a consumer, perhaps it is due to the effects of hype and poor communication by Taleworlds to lower hopes, I expected a "more complete" Bannerlord with more heritage received from the bases of both previous versions and the essential mods for these.

Regarding the updates, no one is worth waiting a month to find changes like " the x-parameter has been decreased from 85 to 45". However I have no problem waiting if the wait is rewarded with quality content.

 

[Andrei[beast]]

I think you've gathered too many points. Obviously developing without a publisher rushing you is an experience for those who design much more pleasantly, nobody likes crushtime. On the other hand, you have to take into account that we are in an unprecedented scenario; the covid pandemic and I don't know to what extent Taleworlds has been affected, but they have been.

Yes, I understand this one and should've probably mentioned how the pandemic also changed stuff around. But at the moment I wrote these that didn't come to my mind, sry

Regarding the updates, no one is worth waiting a month to find changes like " the x-parameter has been decreased from 85 to 45". However I have no problem waiting if the wait is rewarded with quality content.

This is also something I'll have to agree on, not only the slowness but the lack of features is something else that doesn't help TW. I still keep my hopes low so that an update like 1.5.6 will seem great. There are others that are not such a good example..

 

[babelfisch]

5. I don't really know how this would tie to everything else, but yea, seems nice.

People are usually faster when they work for a slave driver...

 

[dannazgu]

@Andrei[beast]

I agree with you, without Investor you get limit resources except when you're a big company with tons of money to invest in the game, expending all in one project is madness, even if it's a big project... but, still, I think they should risk a bit more. WHich probably isn't TW case

About the Pandemic, I'm 100% with you and agree... Turkey I believe was one of the most affected and one of those that stayed on the RED LIGHT for months without cooling down, I remember when I saw the COVID Map, and Eastern Europe and Asia was a total chaos regarding to this.

Home office comes along with the COVID situation, this type of work is awesome no doubt, you have more freedom, but takes a lot more physical and mental of you than working inside the Office, communication can be very low and this is dangerous to many companies.

ANd Terco is right, if we have to wait for Quality content and Quality Product, the waiting is worthy

And I'm with suspicion of COVID-19

 

[Andrei[beast]]

People are usually faster when they work for a slave driver...

Jesus Christ why did I laugh so much..

@Andrei[beast]

I agree with you, without Investor you get limit resources except when you're a big company with tons of money to invest in the game, expending all in one project is madness, even if it's a big project... but, still, I think they should risk a bit more. WHich probably isn't TW case

About the Pandemic, I'm 100% with you and agree... Turkey I believe was one of the most affected and one of those that stayed on the RED LIGHT for months without cooling down, I remember when I saw the COVID Map, and Eastern Europe and Asia was a total chaos regarding to this.

Home office comes along with the COVID situation, this type of work is awesome no doubt, you have more freedom, but takes a lot more physical and mental of you than working inside the Office, communication can be very low and this is dangerous to many companies.

ANd Terco is right, if we have to wait for Quality content and Quality Product, the waiting is worthy

And I'm with suspicion of COVID-19

When i think of TW i wish them to be a Quality over quantity as many of my favourite producers are(the last beta showed that they are indeed capable of doing good stuff). The pandemic destroyed everyone's hopes, but we found a way to work around it. I appreciate TW coming with solutions even in this case and i hope they will accomplish their visions for the game.
Also, take care my dude, I know it's hard.

 

[dannazgu]

When i think of TW i wish them to be a Quality over quantity as many of my favourite producers are(the last beta showed that they are indeed capable of doing good stuff). The pandemic destroyed everyone's hopes, but we found a way to work around it. I appreciate TW coming with solutions even in this case and i hope they will accomplish their visions for the game.
Also, take care my dude, I know it's hard.

So do I... I know they're capable of doing a great game and implement many of community feedbacks on the game, even after full release.

Quality is better than Quantity always... look at Paradox, i got very disappointed in them with the Imperator: Rome, now they're trying to fix, sure... but, you still get suspicious to buy anyhting again.

ANd thanks mate... and sooo close to New Year's eve...... This **** is the worst, every bretah that fails me I think i'm going die, it's worse than Panick attack... the worse part is that I'm from Brazil, and we have a ****ing child and clown for president

 

[HumanCancer]

I think there are workers in TW that spent less time working on the game today then u did writing and coming up with this thread. What company has lack of resources when their EA game sells 5M copies. Slow updates is just on them, there aren't any outside factors.

 

[Worldsprayer]

'Aight, so... I'll have to divide this into 2 parts from the beginning to avoid confusion. Also, mods, this will be a big comparison to other titles so if it's not permitted i can understand locking the thread.
TLDR: The studio I'm talking about has no investors and are the developers and publishers of their own game and no one is rushing them, same case as TW.
1. Comparison
I wanted to express some thoughts i recently had while following the development of a game I'm waiting and I'm very excited for, a sequel to one of my favourites games of all time, that being Dying Light. The studio that made the game, Techland is an independent studio, meaning they develop and publish their game, without outside influence like from investors or publishers. They worked on their game for quite some time and said it'll probably arrive in 2020 but they cancelled it and postponed the release. Now, people are getting mad, and especially after the release of Cyberpunk they want the game to heal their cravings for a new game( i said new, don't mean disrespect towards CB, i know some people like it). The thing is with Cyberpunk that it was mostly rushed by investors(understandable really).
Video that inspired me to the thread and made me understand how it is a bit tied to TW
Now, Techland themselves announced on their official Twitter and discord server that being an independent studio means no investor rushes them and they can take their time on working on their game to make it reach their visions. Now, maybe this last part might seem familiar regarding TW which brings me to part 2:
2.Bannerlord and Taleworlds
The difference is that Taleworlds released their game into early access, which is understandable as there is a big difference between the 2 games, as Bannerlord is a much more bug threatened game. Now the answer that i think of when seeing TW's slowness at updates is that them, just as Techland are not rushed by investors or publishers as Bannerlord is developed and published by themselves( for warband they had Paradox but some time later they got their rights and now they are the publishers receiving all the profits). Here's the clip where i found out that there are no investors and explained the parting from Paradox(still it can't be confirmed)
By now, we can see that the EA period will probably get prolonged and I would agree with it happening, but no one says development will stop after the full release.
Now yes, i understand that nothing I listed will explain the lack of communication but that was explained by Mexxico a while back and I'll search for it and quote it if everyone asks.

Edit: I know this will probably turn to some kind of argument, maybe not that bad but please let's keep this civilised.

A major issue is that TW has had several iterations of their engine and code design ebfore they ever released to beta. For the modders who have been learnign their code, it is actually very obvious that numerous hands have been involved in similar areas but with zero idea of what the other hands have been doing.

Right now mods are getting invalidated almost as soon as they're released since almost every patch changes methods and classes which messes up the harmony patching, which shows they are only NOW working to standardize their code, when that's SUPPOSED to happen from day one.

IF you actually read their patch notes, they actually release a LOT each patch, and as the game breaking bugs get hammered out, their focus is steadily shifting to incorporating old and new ideas into the code base.

 

[GrandiousBrain]

A major issue is that TW has had several iterations of their engine and code design ebfore they ever released to beta. For the modders who have been learnign their code, it is actually very obvious that numerous hands have been involved in similar areas but with zero idea of what the other hands have been doing.

Right now mods are getting invalidated almost as soon as they're released since almost every patch changes methods and classes which messes up the harmony patching, which shows they are only NOW working to standardize their code, when that's SUPPOSED to happen from day one.

IF you actually read their patch notes, they actually release a LOT each patch, and as the game breaking bugs get hammered out, their focus is steadily shifting to incorporating old and new ideas into the code base.

FACTS.Also people dont mention that probaly some veterans that were in TW since MB/MBW LEFT the company so just losing one Veteran espeicaly for TW is HUGE HOLE that can hardly be filled bcs Turkey isnt so to say great quallity filled with developers magnet and usualy realy high ranking experienced veterans arent eager to just go and live in Turkey wich is huge cultural diffeence from their own on top of that moving and living there would be chalange and would waste good chunk of time just familiriazing with the place and with TW way of working not to mention the pay would probably be 10x time slover than just simply going to many other well established big name gaming companies that have several offices all over the world and can pay good amount to veteran developmers.

I think that that is also a factor for stalling bcs they need to find new devs that might not be as experienced as former veterans were and then on top of that there would be like several months of learning/relearning,faminiriazing/getting new dev into way how TW works and its aproach alongside trying to get dev to know the game inside and out all that takes minimum 3-7 moths maybe even more to fully deep dive into stuff and also due to that some devs will be needed to take their time/focus of the work/project to so to say babysit the new dev and trying to teach the new dev of how things work.

Also there are prbobabaly lost of early mistakes made forcing them to scrap,revert or just waste time.Like time they wasted on Engine while they were creating and at the same time learning as they went.If i remmember correctly at beggining they only had like team of 3-5 peopel working on engine and mostly not fully knwwoing how to make it with ocasional helpf from other team departments to go and help out when they had time to spare.Then there was a time where if i remmemebr correctly they went and tried to do CO-OP at one point (so that is wasted time) and they came to comnclusion that it woudl take just way to much time so they abandoned idea bcs if i remmmeber correctly they had problems with particles sync and many otehr thinsg casuing destructions and walls being teared down not being replicated or having huge delays between the two players and each player didnt see the same thing or saw som eof the things but with huge delays.So all hose experiments,mistakes,hirign new peole is all a proces that wastes so much time.Even something like finding and hiring peole taeks atleast half a month to a month of wasting time and lookig to hire bcs lots of stuff goes into ,managing that doing interviews and so on.That is all stuff that takes time off from developing the game espeicaly when you looking for specific roll then yo need the lead dev of that specific roll to stop developing the game and go to meetings/interviews to see if the new dev that aplied is suficient enough or its heavly needed and juts lets hire him/her and then just teach the newbie as they go.

I think things that i mentioned alongside what everyone else here mentioned is what ended them costing/wasting so much time.From experimenting and trying certain thinsg then scraping them/abandoning them to the losing veterans and hiring newbie devs to the lack of staff with huge knowledge about how to create new from scratch engine that can work for the persopses of a big game such as Bannerlord.

 

[Ragratt]

FACTS.Also people dont mention that probaly some veterans that were in TW since MB/MBW LEFT the company so just losing one Veteran espeicaly for TW is HUGE HOLE that can hardly be filled bcs Turkey isnt so to say great quallity filled with developers magnet and usualy realy high ranking experienced veterans arent eager to just go and live in Turkey wich is huge cultural diffeence from their own on top of that moving and living there would be chalange and would waste good chunk of time just familiriazing with the place and with TW way of working not to mention the pay would probably be 10x time slover than just simply going to many other well established big name gaming companies that have several offices all over the world and can pay good amount to veteran developmers.

I think that that is also a factor for stalling bcs they need to find new devs that might not be as experienced as former veterans were and then on top of that there would be like several months of learning/relearning,faminiriazing/getting new dev into way how TW works and its aproach alongside trying to get dev to know the game inside and out all that takes minimum 3-7 moths maybe even more to fully deep dive into stuff and also due to that some devs will be needed to take their time/focus of the work/project to so to say babysit the new dev and trying to teach the new dev of how things work.

Also there are prbobabaly lost of early mistakes made forcing them to scrap,revert or just waste time.Like time they wasted on Engine while they were creating and at the same time learning as they went.If i remmember correctly at beggining they only had like team of 3-5 peopel working on engine and mostly not fully knwwoing how to make it with ocasional helpf from other team departments to go and help out when they had time to spare.Then there was a time where if i remmemebr correctly they went and tried to do CO-OP at one point (so that is wasted time) and they came to comnclusion that it woudl take just way to much time so they abandoned idea bcs if i remmmeber correctly they had problems with particles sync and many otehr thinsg casuing destructions and walls being teared down not being replicated or having huge delays between the two players and each player didnt see the same thing or saw som eof the things but with huge delays.So all hose experiments,mistakes,hirign new peole is all a proces that wastes so much time.Even something like finding and hiring peole taeks atleast half a month to a month of wasting time and lookig to hire bcs lots of stuff goes into ,managing that doing interviews and so on.That is all stuff that takes time off from developing the game espeicaly when you looking for specific roll then yo need the lead dev of that specific roll to stop developing the game and go to meetings/interviews to see if the new dev that aplied is suficient enough or its heavly needed and juts lets hire him/her and then just teach the newbie as they go.

I think things that i mentioned alongside what everyone else here mentioned is what ended them costing/wasting so much time.From experimenting and trying certain thinsg then scraping them/abandoning them to the losing veterans and hiring newbie devs to the lack of staff with huge knowledge about how to create new from scratch engine that can work for the persopses of a big game such as Bannerlord.

I mostly agree with this. I think main reasons for slow progress and the game in state that is are:

1. Mostly inexperienced devs
2. Failure to manage project and said noobs.

I think TW would benefit from having a publisher. Less time having to market and release game and an outside party to prioritize project and set realistic schedule. Investors arent necessary, they have enough money. But direction is lacking. TW arent accountable to anyone except themselves. In their inexperience, that has allowed them to manage things poorly. The result is the product we now have that suffers for lack of innovation and scope and quality.

 

[Short_n_quick]

I mostly agree with this. I think main reasons for slow progress and the game in state that is are:

1. Mostly inexperienced devs
2. Failure to manage project and said noobs.

I think TW would benefit from having a publisher. Less time having to market and release game and an outside party to prioritize project and set realistic schedule. Investors arent necessary, they have enough money. But direction is lacking. TW arent accountable to anyone except themselves. In their inexperience, that has allowed them to manage things poorly. The result is the product we now have that suffers for lack of innovation and scope and quality.

Maybe it has some reason to it, but I also think about other aspect:
They are not making game only, they are also making engine and tools to handle it. It does not look like much, but when you look at it from the software development POV, it makes a little more sense. Assuring that whatever player won't break everything does is one thing, but assuring that modder (who probably knows what he is doing) will not break a game is completely other thing. Not to mention that those elements constantly change, so it is not as plain and simple.
Besides, I bet that if they would have their engine from the getgo, they would produce 2-3 bannerlords already, but they are also making a whole platform to work on, for the hordes of modders to come.

 

[Nalgasucia507]

It is what it is I guess.

 

[Hairy Yahoo]

I can understand everything, slowness, bad design, bugs, lack of PR...

What I don't understand is who makes the call on prioritizing development? Seriously who orders developers to implement inner castle siege defence while sieges are completely broken in first place?

Attackers can't climb siege towers, because defenders are blocking ladders by climbing down on them, pardon me how the hell can this happen lol? Nobody in TW noticed how stupid it seems and how urgent it needs to be fixed?

AI pathfinding? I mean really? Enemy soldiers passing each other because they're so destined to follow their path? Um we were here to fight not dance?

Blobbing infantry? How does that make even sense?

I'm starting to lose my hope and I think they have a huge organizational problem.

 

[Nalgasucia507]

Just chill man. Stop coming to the forums for 2 months and you will relax and forget about so much negativity.

 

[Hairy Yahoo]

Just chill man. Stop coming to the forums for 2 months and you will relax and forget about so much negativity.

Yeah but that won't make anything better after 2 months, when I give the game a try again I'll notice the same issues.

Here, at least I do my part by stating the obvious problems within the game, that's what EA is all about right?

 

[stevehoos]

Just relax and chill, half the game is broken and makes little logical sense lol.

 

[Nalgasucia507]

Yeah but that won't make anything better after 2 months, when I give the game a try again I'll notice the same issues.

Here, at least I do my part by stating the obvious problems within the game, that's what EA is all about right?

Yea, I agree with you man, its the intensity of it, that's all.