Some doubts about this expansion

[Crag Hack]

Hello Guys,

I was looking for an expansion which preserve the main features of Warband and add several new others. I really found this mod very intersting however I have some doubts regarding this mod.

- Do everything remains the same if I install this mod??? All main features will be preserved and some of them will be upgraded? (e.g Marriage system will be the same?)
- Does it require a more powerfull computer to run?
- Can import my customized banner into the NE?
- Are all weapons balanced? In Warband some weapons are not...

 

[soulmata]

NE is a giant enhancement. If you search around, you'll see other threads that discuss this same topic. No features are 'removed'; there are some which are certainly changed, such as reputation loss with villages/cities. I cannot see any argument for native being 'better' than NE, unless by 'better' you mean 'less flavorful'. Don't forget that many of the larger changes NE brings are fully configurable; you can turn off the DK invasion,turn off companion bickering, etc)

It doesn't require any different HW requirements.

My opinion is that armor/weapons are grossly UNbalanced; this isn't just an NE complaint, it's a complaint I had with vanilla, with warband and with numerous other expansions. There's no derived formula being used to generate items, so it's just sort of willy nilly. There is some sanity in parts, and you can tell someone said at some point "hey, this weapon should be X and Y because of Z". But there are many missed items which throws off balance (example: armor with 0 strength requirement that exceeds the defensive value of something with far greater strength requirement, despite being of similar quality and material).

It's more of an armor imbalance than weapons. Some of the high-end weapons are just disgusting, but for the most part weapons seem to be as they should: lethal. I actually came up with a derivation formula to apply across all armor, and generated a revamped list of weight, value, defense, etc, that seemed very fair and separated things into proper tiers. No more full plate armor being worn by people with 8 str, or a 25 def helm requiring 12 str to wear. If the NE team was interested I would gladly submit a proposed overhaul of all armor.

 

[Crag Hack]

Thanks a lot soulmata! I think I'm gonna try this mod.

Brgds,

Crag

 

[pyrosorc]

Yeah, NE is definitely a huge improvement.  Generally I find there's just a lot more to the game with it.  There are a few bits that I'm not so fond of as they currently stand, but there are options to just turn those changes off so it isn't a problem.

 

[jasta85]

I like the new variety of troops, you now have the option of cavalry as rhodoks or nords but they arn't as good as the high tier swadians, and rhodoks get the absolutely disgusting arbalest which shreds anything it hits (if it hits) so you have more flexibility while still keeping the factions unique.

I agree that the armor didn't quite keep up with the weapons, I have some of the best (not THE best but close to it) armor in the game on my current hero but I still get occasionally one shot by a lucky crossbow.

The dark knights are a fun addition to the game, add a little more unpredictability, and there are all sorts of little improvements here and there with kindom management and other features (such as not having to actually go into a village to talk to the elder, you have the option at the village menu)

Overall it definitely brought some spice back into the game for me.  make sure to get battle sizer as well, nothing like having 100 swadian cavalieres at your back and smashing an army of 500+ soldiers, the large battles are my favorite part of this game.

 

[Bert Preast]

It's more of an armor imbalance than weapons. Some of the high-end weapons are just disgusting, but for the most part weapons seem to be as they should: lethal. I actually came up with a derivation formula to apply across all armor, and generated a revamped list of weight, value, defense, etc, that seemed very fair and separated things into proper tiers. No more full plate armor being worn by people with 8 str, or a 25 def helm requiring 12 str to wear. If the NE team was interested I would gladly submit a proposed overhaul of all armor.

I'd love to see an armour rebalance, it's badly needed.  I think the problem is that to make the elite troops really fackin' nails, they were given unbalanced armour and weapons - so your derivation formula may cause problems.  Maybe one formula for regular items, another for the elite stuff?  That way the elites can still be kickass, with their kit balanced against other elites rather than across the board.  I have only the vaguest idea of what a 'derivation formula' is, so I might be talking bollocks here.

I'd also like to see the armour weights better balanced.  Strapping on 50 odd pounds of metal should slow you down noticeably, no matter how evenly distributed the weight is.  In another mod I've played - can't remember which, sorry - plate armours started at about 40.0 weight, and it seemed to work very well.

 

[soulmata]

I agree that the armor didn't quite keep up with the weapons, I have some of the best (not THE best but close to it) armor in the game on my current hero but I still get occasionally one shot by a lucky crossbow.

1-hit KO crossbows are something I happen to agree with; the heavier crossbows, especially on a headshot, should be pretty much instant death all around. Anything less than thick metal armors should be pretty worthless against crossbows as well. However, I also feel the reloading time on crossbows is far too short. The advantage of a crossbow is supposed to be its deadly power and ease of use compared to a bow, at the tradeoff of having to remain still while reloading and a longer reload time in general.


Another issue I have with combat is how few options there are to defend against heavy calvary. Now, granted, heavy cav should be more or less unstoppable when facing off against ranged or light infantry, and be devastating against heavy infantry as well, but specific calvary-counter soldiers, like spearmen/pikemen/etc, should be much more effective at un-horsing mounted soldiers. Further, I feel getting unmounted should damage you pretty heavily. If you're wearing 100lbs of metal gear and galloping at 25Mp/h, then get flung off your horse and land on your face, you'd be in poor shape.

 

[Bert Preast]

Another issue I have with combat is how few options there are to defend against heavy calvary. Now, granted, heavy cav should be more or less unstoppable when facing off against ranged or light infantry, and be devastating against heavy infantry as well, but specific calvary-counter soldiers, like spearmen/pikemen/etc, should be much more effective at un-horsing mounted soldiers. Further, I feel getting unmounted should damage you pretty heavily. If you're wearing 100lbs of metal gear and galloping at 25Mp/h, then get flung off your horse and land on your face, you'd be in poor shape.

In the M&B version I used to charge spearmen sometimes just to see how far I could fly. 

The spear bracing option doesn't seem to work in Warband yet though.   

 

[soulmata]

I have only the vaguest idea of what a 'derivation formula' is, so I might be talking bollocks here.

The idea is that you are dealing with physical items that have set properties.  As an example, let's take any sort of metallic item. Point in case: chest armor.

Given a material, say iron, and ruling out differences in material quality (those are counted for later), it has predictable properties. To give the armor more stopping power, you make it thicker. This adds weight. You want a breastplate capable of withstanding more damage, you make it thicker and therefore heavier. It adds at a predictable but not necessarily linear rate; as the weight of the armor increases, you see diminishing returns on how much defense you are gaining per encumbrance point.

Then you do the same for a different material, say steel, or leather, or composites, etc.

You do the above for 1 item, typically either the item with the lowest defense or something right in the middle. Then for every other item in the game that follows it, you apply the same formula. You end up with a direct correlation between material, weight, defensive value and cost. More resilient metals like steel may give you a better weight/defense ratio, but will be rarer and more expensive. Even still, there are upper limits to how much any one piece of armor can absorb.

It's unfortunate that defense score in M&B is a static value, and relies on the weapons to determine how much damage is delivered. I'd like to see something where a heavy cav unit in full plate charging a pikemen with a braced polearm would see different kinds of damage; the concussive force of the impact, the chance of the pike penetrating the plate, etc. I would also like to see horses slowed down based on the weight of the carrier; a 140lb bow jockey in light leather compared to a 200lb nordic titan with an additional 150lbs of equipment would be a huge difference to a horse. Then again, there are a lot of things I feel are missing from mount and blade, such as item condition, fatigue, etc.

 

[Bert Preast]

Trying to educate me is a lost cause.  Rebalancing the armour is a great cause.  Suggest you prioritise.

Are you down with the idea of different ratios for items used by elite troops?  As long as the price is outrageously high, the player won't be getting any of this stuff until he's already prising it from their cold, dead fingers anyway.

 

[Ballacraine]

I have only the vaguest idea of what a 'derivation formula' is, so I might be talking bollocks here.

The idea is that you are dealing with physical items that have set properties.  As an example, let's take any sort of metallic item. Point in case: chest armor.

Given a material, say iron, and ruling out differences in material quality (those are counted for later), it has predictable properties. To give the armor more stopping power, you make it thicker. This adds weight. You want a breastplate capable of withstanding more damage, you make it thicker and therefore heavier. It adds at a predictable but not necessarily linear rate; as the weight of the armor increases, you see diminishing returns on how much defense you are gaining per encumbrance point.

Then you do the same for a different material, say steel, or leather, or composites, etc.

You do the above for 1 item, typically either the item with the lowest defense or something right in the middle. Then for every other item in the game that follows it, you apply the same formula. You end up with a direct correlation between material, weight, defensive value and cost. More resilient metals like steel may give you a better weight/defense ratio, but will be rarer and more expensive. Even still, there are upper limits to how much any one piece of armor can absorb.

It's unfortunate that defense score in M&B is a static value, and relies on the weapons to determine how much damage is delivered. I'd like to see something where a heavy cav unit in full plate charging a pikemen with a braced polearm would see different kinds of damage; the concussive force of the impact, the chance of the pike penetrating the plate, etc. I would also like to see horses slowed down based on the weight of the carrier; a 140lb bow jockey in light leather compared to a 200lb nordic titan with an additional 150lbs of equipment would be a huge difference to a horse. Then again, there are a lot of things I feel are missing from mount and blade, such as item condition, fatigue, etc.

Very interesting & valid points.

I think item condition & fatigue especially, should be important factors.

Balla. 

 

[Crag Hack]

Just one point about this mod.

It's really damn hard!!!

Mercenary bands and Deserters against my poor conscripts.... I think you guys exaggerated in the mobs.... 

 

[Lav]

In Soviet Russia Native Expansion, bandits get xp and loot from you!

Hint: do not try to beat bandits and especially mercs with novice recruits. Hire your own mercs.

 

[Crag Hack]

I forgot how many times I've been raped by Merc Bands!

Once I lost a full battalion recently trained in a camp with 48 soldiers.

All of them obliterated by a 32 Merc Band....  I was so pissed that I'd cut in 100 pieces the man who did this mod.

It wasn't my fault.... The merc band just engaged me when I was about to enter a city.

 

[Incarnal]

Those Mercs are deadly stuff!

There is a way around them if you play smart, but its a major change of pace from Native. I'd suggest traveling fast and light until you get a few levels and some money, then hire mercs and load up on recruits. You'll probably lose most of your recruits, but your merc should carry the battles, and so long as you keep the cannon fodder recruits stocked up they will eventually climb to great power over the bodies of their dead comrades.