Some criticism about weapons (in the new version)

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Lord Deggial

Recruit
Well, here they come :smile:

- Crossbows are really slow. Well it would not be such a problem if we can reload them while walking back... They are such a waste of time in my opinion :sad: .

- Polearms are the dominant weapon type in the game ! It seems as if they are more powerful in the new version. Just keep on pushing the attack button and no swordsman can stand on your way because they cannot get you to their ranges while you are attacking constantly :evil: . They are even better on horseback.

- In the new version, it is good to have a skill named "horseback archery" but now it is way too hard to use them on horseback. It is discouraging, so that many people may not consider using bows.
 
I must differ with your opinion on the matter.
Crossbows, while they are slow, they are really powerful. However, not being able to reload them on horse is a major setback... but, using that as support weapons (while others are doing the fighting) should be best.
And besides, crossbows are for noobs - recruits and the like. Bows beats crossbow in all respects... but it has very high skill and strength requirements. What we see here, by the way. (But, perhaps a bit of increase in speed could be nice).
Polearms - yea, they are a bit overpowered... but that's a matter of balance. Nerf damage a bit, a bit speed... And I think that spears (not only lances) should be used to charge.
- In the new version, it is good to have a skill named "horseback archery" but now it is way too hard to use them on horseback. It is discouraging, so that many people may not consider using bows.
I think you've never tried to actually use it, didn't you? :razz:
It's very powerful feature. Even with 3rd level 'horseback archery' I could ride around with leisure and pepper enemies with arrows.
Pehaps it's harder then using lances, in some cases, but all-in-all - it's more then viable.
 
A few notes:
1. Shouldn't bardiches be polearms?
2. And 'thrust' attack type on bows and xbows looks silly.
3. Swing animations, mostly, are rather awkward. They look like swings that would make a person who has only vague understanding which end of the sword he should grasp... no utilization of body twist momentum at all... and that's the key to strike powerful blows. Stance (leg position - wise) for one-handed weapons also is not authentic. (at least, to my, admittedly not expert knowledge). It should not be different from leg positions from two-handed weapons.
I'd recommend you to watch some of videos (and look at screens/book scans) on this site:
thearma.org
Very good site regarding historical fencing.
 
Balor said:
Bows beats crossbow in all respects... but it has very high skill and strength requirements.

This is exactly why the crossbows are a waste of time... The strength requirements are an addition of the new version I believe...

Balor said:
I think you've never tried to actually use it, didn't you? :razz:
It's very powerful feature. Even with 3rd level 'horseback archery' I could ride around with leisure and pepper enemies with arrows.

I have not bought the full version yet, but I have finished the trial version. My horseback archery was 2 and well, to confess; I didn't have much time to practice :smile: . But if you played the old version, maybe you would agree with me in this matter; I don't know... Well, still it seems like that we have an agreement in most of my opinions :wink:
 
Well, if it was WAY better in the old version, it must be GODLY overpowered back then :smile:.
I soloed 12 (could be any number, just less then 72 :smile:) of river pirates without them even having a chance of hitting me. And that's with the flimsy starting bow! Of course, sea or mountain ones would be much harder.. but, first, you'd have money for followers by then... and much better bow.
And, again, xbow is a 'lazy-mans' bow. You don't have a lot of skills and STR to fire it... but still will be able to pack a decent punch. But it's sloweness and inablitity to be realoaded on a horse is a absolutely realistic (and required for balance) drawback.
On the other hand, I'd say - while power-draw should affect damage for bow, it should quicken reload times for xbows. Sounds about right, isn't it? And not that hard to make, I guess. Also, multi-loaded xbows should be a nice addition too. Must be rare and cost a fortune, tho.
Also, how about making different ammo types for bows? You cannot get very creative with quarrels, but you can have slashing arrows that do extra (massive) damage to unarmored targets, and (same for bolts) made of different materials - like iron, steel, tempered steel, silver :wink:.
 
Balor said:
1. Shouldn't bardiches be polearms?
A bardichet could have a long shaft or a short one. Most examples I have seen in books and museums have short shafts so I used it as a two-handed weapon.

Thanks for your feedback on the swing animations. The site you mentioned seems to have a great amount of interesting material. It will definitely be very helpful.
 
Also, toyed around with two-handers and lances.
Lance charge is bugged - they say, when you attack someone, that triple damage is done... while it's a bit more then 1.5 (I've attacked nearly (and, sometimes, completely) naked river pirates.
With a bastard (and low-quality one, it's damage was only a bit higher then on on the lance) sword I easily done almost 2 times the damage with simple ride-by attack.
Perhaps it's my 3'rd level power swing coming into play (makes sense that it should not be applied to a lance charge)? But even that does not justify so pitifully low damage for a lance.
And again - at least pikes should be used for charge attack too (automatic one, I mean). Or, better - any polearm. Why lances are so unique? They have some sort of grip for that or something? I've not noticed that on the actual model... and spear and lance look exactly the same.
can be wrong, tho - my experience in historic fencing did not include jousting... due to the lack of warhorses and proper arena :wink:.
And, btw, different materials (or, at least, different qualities of steel) should be applied (along with bend, chipped, etc) to weapons too, I guess.
Btw, don't you think that that, no matter how chipped and rusted your hammer is, it willl NOT do less damage on an impact? :smile:
 
Well, personal opinions aside, I still don't understand why can't we reload crossbows while walking away from enemy. Is it illogical or something? It is irritating to start reloading again (which takes much time (but no matter for reloading once :sad: )) because I walked one or two steps backward while reloading.
 
Because note what kind of crossbows we have in the game. It's not one we have in HL, you know :razz:.
You must put you foot into the loop (or how it's called), and then use your entire body (legs, feet,back) to load the crossbow (hence you don't have to be strong to do so). How are you supposed to walk in the process? And if you'll interrupt the process halfway, of course you'll not be realoaded.
 
Thanks Balor. You seem to have some knowledge about combat with arms in real life :smile: . I would like to have your opinion about an issue about polearms.
Balor said:
Polearms - yea, they are a bit overpowered... but that's a matter of balance. Nerf damage a bit, a bit speed...

It seems like polearms are dominant because their reaches are higher than one-handed and two handed weapons. I think, in real life, a swordsman that manages to get really close to a an opponent armed with a (say) spear would be real problem to his opponent. It will be really hard to strike with the tip of the spear at this swordsman. Polearms may be useful against mounted enemies (as in Braveheart :wink: ), and also for a mounted warrior (jousting knights etc. :cool: ); but the game cannot capture the issue I was talking of, and this maybe the reason that the polearms are overpowered THAN in the REAL life... Am I wrong ?

PS.: I didn't mistaken the Xbows in the game with the ones in HL :lol: , don't worry :razz:
 
Well, in fact, even if you are with a bastard sword - and someone with sword+shield comes close... you are screwed. I've manage to defeat much better swordsmen then me this way - if they were distracted enough for me to close it.
There are some ways to deal with that, but it's rather complicated, and involved complex grasps, alternate grips and special moves (like grasping your twohander by the center of blade (if you have armored gloves or middle grip), and making a 'windmill' manuever... but that require a lot of custom scripting an animations per move... Doubtfully an option for an independant developer... and besides, it's not THAT bad as it is now.
Parrying system is one of the best I've seen, btw.
Pikes and halberds were never intended to be used by a solitary adventurer, btw. They are used in formations or, at least, groups - when sword+shield users are doing the fighting, polearm users use their superior reach to batter away at enemies that don't have a chance to retaliate (well, in a perfect situation). Also they are used to make a breach in shield wall enemy formation...
Btw, talking of RL combat. I've seen someone saying about that IRL, a lot of people died, slain by their own comrades in confusion of the battle... 100% true!
When we used to spar 'wall vs wall', and shield wall was breached, it was not uncommon to get hit by, or hit someone friendly. It happened more often then not :smile:.
 
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