Solution to "Crouch in a corner and block up" AI Exploiting: AI Kicks & Bashes

[Zarthas]

For ****s sake, read the thread before responding.

THIS DOESN'T AFFECT ME PERSONALLY, IT AFFECTS N00BS AND IS STUPID.



So we've all seen it.

Some guy kites off as many troops as he can, crouches in a corner, and blocks up. He disproportionately affects the outcome of the battle by taking a dozen of your warriors out of the fight until something else draws their attention. Sure, if you're looking right at him you can react with appropriate move orders, but you can't always be staring at every corner of the map to make sure there's not some douche in it. It is again not friendly to new players, is a lame delaying tactic used by the lamest of the lame, and should be resolved.

Easy solution.

If someone is crouched and an AI is right up next to them, the AI can decide to sometimes kick them while simultaneously attacking, or doing a Bash. Problem solved. Could you maybe sometimes goad an AI into trying to kick you by crouch-blocking? Yeah, but that's pretty stupid, you can't predict if it will kick or bash, and will get you killed in lots of other ways.

This does not resolve the related AI exploit "Back into a corner and block up while in a melee crush", but I will take a partial solution over a nonsolution any day.

Easier, Simpler Solution, that is not as satisfying:

Blocking (without a shield) while crouching simply makes you stand up.

There is no legitimate use case for blocking with a melee weapon while crouching. Blocking with a shield while crouching makes sense, weapon blocking does not.

 

[Super Jew]

The one good thing that came from crush through was solving this problem.

 

[Zarthas]

The one good thing that came from crush through was solving this problem.

Yeah, absolutely, I kind of hoped/assumed that was the design intent of it. There was a good idea in there, was just implemented in a kind of insane way. Some kind of "blocking fatigue" mechanic would work as well, blocking 10 attacks in 2 seconds automatically flinches you or some such thing would also be great, but that might end up being more finicky than using already existing mechanics like bashes and kicks.

 

[vfkaseke]

I don't know if this is sucha big problem. To remedy it all you have to do is just F1F1 into the enemy formation before you F1F3. You need to keep an eye on your AI instead of just blindly charging them in and imo that is fine.

 

[Moth_Queen]

AI shall kick, bash, drag and abuse the turncap in any way a player can.

 

[Zarthas]

I don't know if this is sucha big problem. To remedy it all you have to do is just F1F1 into the enemy formation before you F1F3. You need to keep an eye on your AI instead of just blindly charging them in and imo that is fine.

Is this exciting gameplay to you? Do you think Captain mode is at its best when you can't engage in a melee yourself because you are babysitting AI to make sure it isn't exploited by delaying cheese tactics? We all recognize you can work around it, but you can work around being stabbed with a screwdriver too, doesn't mean its interesting, enjoyable, good game design, or that you'll ever convince me to just accept being stabbed with screwdrivers.

Don't make excuses for these people. They deserve to be stomped to death by a horde of AI and we deserve to see it happen.

 

[WhiteEyedSh4rk]

To be honest, in my experience the troops don't take long at all to take care of that one guy crouched in the corner. And he rarely draws more than 3-5 troops with him. I think it would be hard to adjust when troops are kicking and bashing, without making them overpowered and unfair, not worth the efford in my opinion.

 

[Zarthas]

To be honest, in my experience the troops don't take long at all to take care of that one guy crouched in the corner. And he rarely draws more than 3-5 troops with him. I think it would be hard to adjust when troops are kicking and bashing, without making them overpowered and unfair, not worth the efford in my opinion.

That's fine, but the suggestion is that the kick and bash only against a crouching player. The only reason to crouch against a bunch of AI is to exploit, so I have no problem with it feeling unfair to the creep.

The new hillfort map is the worst offender for this behavior, with lots of tight corners in the most common engagements areas.

 

[Mabons]

I think it would be hard to adjust when troops are kicking and bashing, without making them overpowered and unfair, not worth the efford in my opinion.

The AI is absolutely BRAINDEAD in this game, and your worried about simply allowing the ai to kick and bash will make them op and unfair.

Christ alive imagine having some actual challenge.

 

[Greedalicious]

Arnt there already mods that improve the AI? Shouldnt they boost the AI in Captains mode?

 

[Etonviper]

never had this problem. I honestly just baby sit my troops so maybe that why. AI could be heavily improved though, bigger problem is solo cav targeting your trash cav AI and wiping you cav out.

 

[Zarthas]

never had this problem. I honestly just baby sit my troops so maybe that why. AI could be heavily improved though, bigger problem is solo cav targeting your trash cav AI and wiping you cav out.

Oh no I agree, for the record, this does not affect me personally as I mash commands constantly as well, I'm just tired of seeing it all the time. It does not improve the game for anyone.

Agree solo cav is a worse issue but I don't see that getting solved any time soon. I'm just looking for incremental easy wins here.

 

[vfkaseke]

Is this exciting gameplay to you? Do you think Captain mode is at its best when you can't engage in a melee yourself because you are babysitting AI to make sure it isn't exploited by delaying cheese tactics? We all recognize you can work around it, but you can work around being stabbed with a screwdriver too, doesn't mean its interesting, enjoyable, good game design, or that you'll ever convince me to just accept being stabbed with screwdrivers.

Don't make excuses for these people. They deserve to be stomped to death by a horde of AI and we deserve to see it happen.

It's literally called captain mode. Personally I think having to manage your troops WHILE also fighting yourself adds to the skill ceiling, which isn't a bad thing. If you seriously can't be bothered to F1F1 every once in a while, then you deserve getting ****ed by a captain that's better than you. Besides, when the main melee starts, once you engage your units (which you should do before you personally join the fray), you generally shouldn't have to micromanage much if you've set the melee up properly.

As I said, I don't think this is as much of a problem as you make it out to be. There's a lot worse ways to manipulate the AI than captain aggro, and honestly polearns units are way more effective at what you're describing than any shield unit since they can actually chop down the lot that's chasing them as well.

 

[WhiteEyedSh4rk]

The AI is absolutely BRAINDEAD in this game, and your worried about simply allowing the ai to kick and bash will make them op and unfair.

Christ alive imagine having some actual challenge.

Yes, thats my opinion, I don't think the AI is too weak at this point. Keep in mind not everyone played this game as long as you have, most multiplayer players are fairly new to the game or just play it from time to time. Such players will get easily discouraged from playing when not getting at least "some" easy kills. Especially captain mode is the go to game mode for them, because playing against other players is way harder than playing against AI. I too switch to captain mode after getting frustrated with my bad stats in skirmish, to rebuild my motivation.

 

[Zarthas]

Yes, thats my opinion, I don't think the AI is too weak at this point. Keep in mind not everyone played this game as long as you have, most multiplayer players are fairly new to the game or just play it from time to time. Such players will get easily discouraged from playing when not getting at least "some" easy kills. Especially captain mode is the go to game mode for them, because playing against other players is way harder than playing against AI. I too switch to captain mode after getting frustrated with my bad stats in skirmish, to rebuild my motivation.

Not going to lie to you, I respect the honesty. Again though, this suggestion would not actually make the game any more difficult for you as the AI would only do this to crouching players. This would not change the game for anyone except people trying a very specific AI exploit.

It's literally called captain mode. Personally I think having to manage your troops WHILE also fighting yourself adds to the skill ceiling, which isn't a bad thing. If you seriously can't be bothered to F1F1 every once in a while, then you deserve getting ****ed by a captain that's better than you. Besides, when the main melee starts, once you engage your units (which you should do before you personally join the fray), you generally shouldn't have to micromanage much if you've set the melee up properly.

As I said, I don't think this is as much of a problem as you make it out to be. There's a lot worse ways to manipulate the AI than captain aggro, and honestly polearns units are way more effective at what you're describing than any shield unit since they can actually chop down the lot that's chasing them as well.

I said several times this doesn't affect me personally, its lame to do this to n00bs and shouldn't be part of the game. Yeah, there's way worse issues, but the solutions to those are complex and this is simple.
I can't even tell what you're arguing about if I'm being honest with you.



For real, I'm not sure anyone on this forum actually reads threads they respond to.

 

[vfkaseke]

Not going to lie to you, I respect the honesty. Again though, this suggestion would not actually make the game any more difficult for you as the AI would only do this to crouching players. This would not change the game for anyone except people trying a very specific AI exploit.


I said several times this doesn't affect me personally, its lame to do this to n00bs and shouldn't be part of the game. Yeah, there's way worse issues, but the solutions to those are complex and this is simple.
I can't even tell what you're arguing about if I'm being honest with you.



For real, I'm not sure anyone on this forum actually reads threads they respond to.

So if good play fixes this, how is it a problem? I don't really get what YOU are arguing.

 

[Etonviper]

So if good play fixes this, how is it a problem? I don't really get what YOU are arguing.

If you think about it, this actually should not be a problem. The AI is just dumb so they cannot attack but new players do not understand this. It is a fixable thing but it is a minor bug. The devs talk about AI abuse and how it is a current problem in captains and this technically is AI abuse.

 

[Ling*]

Another way to deal with this issue would be to set a hard limit on how many Ai can attack a single target, so that troops will prefer smaller 3 on 1 matchups over 12 on 1 matchups. Change their targeting parameters to detect how many friendly units within their respective formations are targeting any given single unit and if they detect another friendly unit that is attempting to engage with that same target, they will instead attempt to focus on a different target that is not currently being engaged in combat.

 

[vfkaseke]

Another way to deal with this issue would be to set a hard limit on how many Ai can attack a single target, so that troops will prefer 1 on 1 matchups over 12 on 1 matchups. Change their targeting parameters to detect how many friendly units within their respective formations are targeting any given single unit and if they detect another friendly unit that is attempting to engage with that same target, they will instead attempt to focus on a different target that is not currently being engaged in combat.

This would definitely need to be different for different unit types though, and I imagine super hard to implement. What radius do the units think about? Right now, it's more or less 2 meters or so in my experience. The units are hard to pull from mass combats already. This only happens when people F1F3 way before the battle starts.

 

[Zarthas]

So if good play fixes this, how is it a problem? I don't really get what YOU are arguing.

Again, just because I can mitigate something doesn't mean I should spend part of the game doing so. It is just not an interesting or enjoyable decision. It'd be better to just not have this be a feature of the game. Any design decision, including a lack of a decision, that results in the game being less fun for no benefit is stupid.

I do understand your argument of "its fine how it is", its not like that didn't occur to me. I just find it less compelling than a version of this game that does not have this. This is an AI exploit, full stop. AI exploits should be removed, full stop. We'd lose nothing by fixing this issue and we'd remove another incentive for exploitative play. This the literal definition of a corner case.

Reframe your argument and see if you still agree with it. If there was part of the collision mesh on a map that made your AI troops fall through the ground indefinitely, you'd want it resolved right? You could just not stand in that spot on the collision mesh, and we could call that good play, but that's not a solution.

If you think about it, this actually should not be a problem. The AI is just dumb so they cannot attack but new players do not understand this. It is a fixable thing but it is a minor bug. The devs talk about AI abuse and how it is a current problem in captains and this technically is AI abuse.

This guy gets it. No reason not to resolve this issue.

Another way to deal with this issue would be to set a hard limit on how many Ai can attack a single target, so that troops will prefer 1 on 1 matchups over 12 on 1 matchups. Change their targeting parameters to detect how many friendly units within their respective formations are targeting any given single unit and if they detect another friendly unit that is attempting to engage with that same target, they will instead attempt to focus on a different target that is not currently being engaged in combat.

This is not a terrible idea at all, it just would require a heavier lift and some rework of the AI in general. They really should have some kind of "weight" system about engaging targets in certain numbers, perhaps preferring to engage targets that have a optimum number of "engagees", but that's not part of the design presently. It'd solve this narrow issue, and would help with the greater "Captain Kiting" exploiting in general.
The only quibble I have is we would not get the satisfaction of seeing a wannabe exploiter kicked to death by a mob, but I'd live. I suppose there's no reason to not have these as complementary solutions.