So... How is Taleworlds getting away with this?

Currently viewing this thread:

JustinTime49

Sergeant at Arms
My speculation is this: i refuse to believe that they are just lazy people, who sold their unfinished stuff to some dummies and are sitting there laughing at our stupidity.... i think all we have to do is try and be as much constructive in our criticism as we can. EVEN if we think that our criticism is not being heard. On this forum there are many threads which are basically: Screw you talewords you suck, this game sucks, everything sucks. If i were TW dev i would ignore forum at all, and focus on my job... cause everyone hates obnoxious people throwing insults.....
The thing is, the same way I also don't believe TW is lazy, forum users too aren't inherently evil. There was a time where this forum was filled with both praise AND constructive criticism. The reason for the shift in attitude is because of the little that has been accomplished in the past year, COVID and all.

Personally, I was under the assumption that the game was very feature-complete, and the many missing features in the EA were on purpose in the hope to refine the very buggy features. Fast-forward one year, and development seems to be in a state of redundancy, each patch fixing bugs only to create new ones.
 

Ling*

Knight
What they mean is 'too complex for consoles'.
I was genuinely frustrated when they changed the order/command hotkeys in order to make them more accessible for controllers, I had over a thousand hours playing with the old hotkeys that are ingrained in my muscle memory and I have no option to return to them. This is my biggest complaint regarding the need to simplify things to fit cross platform. I really want "Legacy Keys" option.
 
The thing is, the same way I also don't believe TW is lazy, forum users too aren't inherently evil. There was a time where this forum was filled with both praise AND constructive criticism. The reason for the shift in attitude is because of the little that has been accomplished in the past year, COVID and all.

Personally, I was under the assumption that the game was very feature-complete, and the many missing features in the EA were on purpose in the hope to refine the very buggy features. Fast-forward one year, and development seems to be in a state of redundancy, each patch fixing bugs only to create new ones.
I was under the same assumption for the first couple of months, by now it's clear we'll' be lucky to get any significant content added at all.
 

Spinozart1

Veteran
Um, forgive me for misunderstanding, but your first three jot notes only specify TW's expectation of the game, again questioning the reason for EA if not community. The last jot is exactly my point, the examples(save for quests?) you provided have been already provided by the community, again raising a similar question, what has EA accomplished for TW exactly except for fuller coffers?


My first paragraph in the OP? I know it may not read as powerful since I didn't bother for direct quotes, but if you've been around the forums in the past years, or have been following development and Q&A, you would understand that this thought process of relying on modders have been encouraged by TW heavily.
If this is your reality I have a wonderful bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
No misunderstanding please, I'm not saying "eveything is fine...", neither having any "White Knight" behaviour or whatever...
I'm just saying that TW statement quoted in OP is a good resume of what is actually happening with this EA...
And "fuller coffers" was obviously one of the major motivations...
 

vonbalt

Knight at Arms
WBNWVCM&B
I was genuinely frustrated when they changed the order/command hotkeys in order to make them more accessible for controllers, I had over a thousand hours playing with the old hotkeys that are ingrained in my muscle memory and I have no option to return to them. This is my biggest complaint regarding the need to simplify things to fit cross platform. I really want "Legacy Keys" option.
yeah i'm still salty about that, the old orders hotkeys worked wonderfully and not a singlesoul complained about it beyond wanting even more options, they changed it for consoles and actually broke the way many used to play the game, it was so easy to position your troops exactly where you wanted and facing exactly what you wanted before and now it's a chore that barely works, they said they would try to improve it (a problem they created themselves) months ago and we got nothing.

there was tons of feedback on how to make the hotkeys good and useful and they were all ignored..
 

sabatonsky

Sergeant
The thing is, the same way I also don't believe TW is lazy, forum users too aren't inherently evil. There was a time where this forum was filled with both praise AND constructive criticism. The reason for the shift in attitude is because of the little that has been accomplished in the past year, COVID and all.

Personally, I was under the assumption that the game was very feature-complete, and the many missing features in the EA were on purpose in the hope to refine the very buggy features. Fast-forward one year, and development seems to be in a state of redundancy, each patch fixing bugs only to create new ones.
You do know ye old realiable, right?
100 lines of bugs in the code, 100 lines of bugs
take one down
patch it around
216 lines of bug in the code!
 

Ragratt

Squire
WB
To be fair the game is improving. I played for first time in few months and noticed ai using tactics and formations, even well into the battle. People are upset at how sloppy, incomplete and slow development has been. But in hindsight it shouldnt have been a surprise because it always has. The EA process and communication has been poor, but I’ll wait until ‘22 to pass final judgement.
 

Apocal

Master Knight
My point is that from what we know, the direction of the game heavily implies that it isn't planned to be all that complex at all, which begs the question, what was the need for EA?
To stress test the game systems and address serious performance concerns, most likely. That's the only reason and Armagan said as much in his PC Gamer interview from 2019.
Have they even fixed perks yet?
?

Perks have been damned-near 100% implemented for months. I think there is only one that doesn't, the Charm barter penalty reduction.
 

qwerrecd42

Recruit
You do know ye old realiable, right?
100 lines of bugs in the code, 100 lines of bugs
take one down
patch it around
216 lines of bug in the code!
ye old reliable from before our more enlightened modern era of regression tests. the only way this still happens is if you don't have regression tests.
 
I was asking a question. Not sure what's confusing about that.
Perks have been damned-near 100% implemented for months. I think there is only one that doesn't, the Charm barter penalty reduction.
But it sure is strange how long it took, isn't it? You can't even say they are fully 100% implemented yet after a year. You'd think it wouldn't be that hard to implement. But with TW, you have to expect anything.
 

SOku

Regular
Perks have been damned-near 100% implemented for months. I think there is only one that doesn't, the Charm barter penalty reduction.

They buried the possibility to place our troops before any combat tho ( Tactics if I recall correctly ), among many others perks.
 

Terco_Viejo

Spanish Gifquisition
Grandmaster Knight
They buried the possibility to place our troops before any combat tho ( Tactics if I recall correctly ), among many others perks.
Not exactly. According to official statements:
Dejan said:
....please note that the perk and the perk description were there without functionality. It was removed from the perk tree as we don't believe a feature like that should be locked up behind a perk.

We will explore the idea as part of the "Order of Battle" feature instead.
(source)
 
Oh, c'mon.
I said it before in other thread, but I will make short recap, of what I said:
Have you any idea how software development works? Especially if you want to allow others to interact directly with your code? For the most part, this is not bashing the keyboard till game appears on your screen, there are many factors involved into creating, sharing and then mantaining the code. TW basically creates an engine and then a game on top of it, not just uses existing parts to combine them into one, they have to think it all through, prepare plan, then code it from the scratch (or incorporate into existing code which often takes much more time), trying not to break any of existing parts (as minor as text display, as they may be difficult to fix if introduced change will interfere with it) and then in case of BL make it also configurable for modders via XMLs or classes in code, in all of that still remembering to apply patterns that help working with code afterwards, probably creating internal documentation and they still have to discuss suggestions and fix bugs, which may not have obvious root cause.
Being in the bugs' topic - fixing them is not that easy as
Code:
if (hero.wantsToDoThing)

{

   Dont();

}
As, you may not know in which part of kilemeters-long code this bug appears, and in what circuumstances (thousands of numbers representing data flying around an application may interfere with each other if not properly isolated), especially if the game is life-sim which has thousands of possible paths of execution, data transfer and maybe some leaks along the way. This is why they need your saves, to not guess-till-u-find-it, but to have test case, then troubleshoot it (sometimes probably by looking at memory records, not actual code). In my work I had case when we were looking for the issue for two weeks at least, but because we weren't able to reproduce the EXACT same bug, we werent able to find it. Only after we accidentaly found it, we were able to get over it in 1 week.
All in all, this is vast amount of code, technology, processes and work to be done to do even minor thing, and then you still have to give your workers vacations, organize their work, and they also have their own life, own issues, and can feel worse, not being able to jump around the code like grasshopper. And this is also easy if you have the same programmers that started the work still working. If you replaced some of them (may it be 30%), that it is where the fun begins - reading someone else's code is also not a easy-to-read fantasy book. If anything it may be Lord of the Rings, written in elven language, by not-so-smart dwarf.

And why are mods that incorporate "too complicated" things, that BL doesn't? There is a small possiblility (90%), that modders use more hackish techniques in coding their mods, which they do not intent to allow others to build on, than the TW which has to have as-broad-as-possible compatibility with anything that modders throw into the game (because TW obviously does know that WB's main strength were the mods - this is why they are making plain game, to allow it for best mod-branching possible) and make official tools to manage all that (if you even tackled modding, you noticed, that there is whole program dedicated to edit scenes and assets - something that can take years on its own to create in good manner).

Yes, I was triggered. Not the first, nor the last time.
 

Bloc

Duke
WB
:smile:
Not gonna go all the details, but few points to say:
- Normal users don't care if it's moddable af. They are not buying a game engine, they are buying a game.
- Normal users don't care if their internal code is a pile of mess. They are not buying a game engine, they are buying a game.
- What you are saying doesn't make any sense or supporting your argument at all - yes reading someone else's code is hard. But this is exactly what modders are doing. Yes, modders are doing "hackish" solutions because other roads are blocked - either purposely or unpurposely by TW. Doing something in a hackish way is x2 times harder than having the entire source code and doing it properly. So based on what you said, modders are doing x4 times more work and thought process than TW employee does and still successfully implements "complex" features.
- TW already did plan the game to make it moddable. But that happened at the beginning. The overall codebase isn't mod-friendly. I think that's because of how they code, some people think that's on purpose. That I can't know for sure, but clearly they are not mod-lover. Also, some parts are bugs, unrelated to mods. AI, for example, have literally NOTHING to do with modding at all. Sieges are a mess. They had 1 year to fix that, still no luck. Claiming that game is "slowly progressing" because of mods is just trying to find black sheep on their bad management.

Feel free to trigger as long as you don't insult people or make it personal, I think everyone is fine with that.
 
Top Bottom