So... How is Taleworlds getting away with this?

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I know the title sounds bad, but hear me out, because I'm going full conspiracy mode here.

For those following both the progress of the game and developer responses, many may be familiar with the phrase "too complex". Taking that in mind, if any of you follow the Nexus or are aware of the modders in this forum, many may have noticed the number of VERY complex mods that modders create with an arm tied behind their back.

With those points in mind, let me quote the first two paragraphs for the reason for EA from TW directly:

“Early access is something that we are very familiar with: our first title, Mount & Blade, helped to pioneer this method of release back in 2005. By working alongside our community we were able to deliver a unique gaming experience that players still enjoy to this day. These past experiences have taught us that it is vital to bring players in to help us iron out any issues and refine the game by utilizing feedback to bring it to the level that both our community and we expect.

We are hoping to run a productive and efficient early access for M&B Bannerlord as well. However, due to the nature and scale of game that we have envisioned, there may be various problems or missing features and content during the course of early access."

Now at the beginning of EA, this statement made sense, now however... between their initial estimates of one year in EA and the delivery of content within that timeframe, the numbers just aren't adding up anymore. Let me be clear that I personally don't care that they didn't meet their "estimate", that isn't my point. My point is that from what we know, the direction of the game heavily implies that it isn't planned to be all that complex at all, which begs the question, what was the need for EA?

Maybe I'm being far too pessimistic, but as mentioned above, suggested community features that TW deemed too "complex" or outright ignore are making their way into the Nexus by modders who work in their free time.

Coming back to the topic sentence, how is it that TW is able to charge AA(a) price tag for a skeletal sidegraded version of WB, only to rely on the free working community members to flesh it out?
 

Poddicus

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
They're doing the absolute bare minimum to release the game without getting sued over it having zero content
And they would've gotten away with it too if not for those pesky meddling forum users

At least they're not pulling a Bethesda and trying to monetise community made mods by slapping a price tag onto them
 

Ragratt

Squire
WB
It is almost a scam. TW haven't accepted feedback in any organized form and progress is so minimal. The game hasnt developed in organized form. Yet reviews are 98% positive. Game review companies are partially to blame. They hype every game for clicks. How do none of them see this trainwreck?
 
bring players in to help us iron out any issues: Free QA testing for bug
refine the game by utilizing feedback: Using your ,sav(s) to save us time on re-creating the bugs you report

I'm really hoping the "too complicated " is just a temporary while they work on the base game. Although it does seem they just don't want players to the have the control and player agency most of us seem to want.

Tw, what is the point of a strategy game where you can't use your strategy? I wanna be the boss!
 

Tork789

Knight at Arms
WBNWWF&SM&BVC
I'm just speculating here, but maybe developing a whole game with it's own engine isn't the same as hacking up a mod?
 

mfuegemann

Regular
My hopes have been crashed some months ago. Now I just wait for a final release, so that modders can breathe life into Bannerlord.
I do not count on any improvements made by TW. The additional time they take is just pointless and makes it harder for modders to start.
 

mfuegemann

Regular
Probably to get money in, and to get more free "testers."
To be able to sell crap even after the first wave of players found out the true state of the game. If it had been a real release last year, they would not have had the option to argue along the EA line to sell more and more copies.
 

Spinozart1

Sergeant
“Early access is something that we are very familiar with: our first title, Mount & Blade, helped to pioneer this method of release back in 2005. By working alongside our community we were able to deliver a unique gaming experience that players still enjoy to this day. These past experiences have taught us that it is vital to bring players in to help us iron out any issues and refine the game by utilizing feedback to bring it to the level that both our community and we expect.

We are hoping to run a productive and efficient early access for M&B Bannerlord as well. However, due to the nature and scale of game that we have envisioned, there may be various problems or missing features and content during the course of early access."
Well I don't want to be the "devil's advocate" but it resumes quite well the reality:
  • They want to involve the players to iron out any issues and refine the game.
  • They want to bring the game to the level that both community and TW is expecting.
  • They are "hoping" for a productive and efficient EA.
  • During the course of EA, there may be various problems (performances, AI siege...), missing features (banners...) and content (quests...)
"How is it that TW is able to charge AA(a) price tag for a skeletal sidegraded version of WB, only to rely on the free working community members to flesh it out?" ==> It is too early to affirm that TW is relying on the modders to flesh the game out.
For sure we may question the fact that they leave obvious bugs (ladders) which clearly upset a lot of players.
But for now, the game is still under development, and hopefully they will be able to deliver "the nature and scale of game that they have envisioned" in Q4 2021...
 

JimmyCakes

Regular
The person running the company needs to be named and shamed more often. He should be on here seeing how players are reacting to his game and make some good decisions. Instead he is completely detached.
 
Well I don't want to be the "devil's advocate" but it resumes quite well the reality:
  • They want to involve the players to iron out any issues and refine the game.
  • They want to bring the game to the level that both community and TW is expecting.
  • They are "hoping" for a productive and efficient EA.
  • During the course of EA, there may be various problems (performances, AI siege...), missing features (banners...) and content (quests...)
"How is it that TW is able to charge AA(a) price tag for a skeletal sidegraded version of WB, only to rely on the free working community members to flesh it out?" ==> It is too early to affirm that TW is relying on the modders to flesh the game out.
For sure we may question the fact that they leave obvious bugs (ladders) which clearly upset a lot of players.
But for now, the game is still under development, and hopefully they will be able to deliver "the nature and scale of game that they have envisioned" in Q4 2021...
Normally I would be fine with an attitude of "wait and see what happens". But since we've seen very few substantial things added in the last 13 months what makes you think the next 9 months of ea (assuming the game will be out of ea then) will actually change anything? As you say things like ladders are still broken, and we've been told that other things like banners are going to be added in or that smithing is going to be rebalanced. But what exactly are they waiting for? All I see are updates with which break the game and add new bugs and very little content actually comes out. TW isn't setting the world on fire with their pace of development and to top it off the piss poor communication from them makes things even worse. This doesn't instill a lot of confidence.
 

danEN

Muted
WBM&BWF&SNWVC
For those following both the progress of the game and developer responses, many may be familiar with the phrase "too complex". Taking that in mind, if any of you follow the Nexus or are aware of the modders in this forum, many may have noticed the number of VERY complex mods that modders create with an arm tied behind their back.
What they mean is 'too complex for consoles'.
 

Spinozart1

Sergeant
Normally I would be fine with an attitude of "wait and see what happens". But since we've seen very few substantial things added in the last 13 months what makes you think the next 9 months of ea (assuming the game will be out of ea then) will actually change anything? As you say things like ladders are still broken, and we've been told that other things like banners are going to be added in or that smithing is going to be rebalanced. But what exactly are they waiting for? All I see are updates with which break the game and add new bugs and very little content actually comes out. TW isn't setting the world on fire with their pace of development and to top it off the piss poor communication from them makes things even worse. This doesn't instill a lot of confidence.
Actually, nothing makes me thing that they will manage to release a finished game in Q4.
The next patch (after a long silence since a few weeks now) should give us a better visibility on the possible perspectives.
But yeah, leaving the bug with the ladders for such a long time is really something that bugs :lol: me as well...
Are they trying to overhaul the whole mechanics? Or is the current AI siege a temporary solution since the EA release and they will implement the intially planned AI in the coming patches?
Nobody actually knows and this situation only leaves us with pure speculations and suspicions...
What they mean is 'too complex for consoles'.
Unfortunatelly this may be true...
 

ShakenSpeare

Sergeant at Arms
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
They're doing the absolute bare minimum to release the game without getting sued over it having zero content
No, they're not even doing the bare minimum. They're doing less than that. If they were doing even the bare minimum for passability they would've fixed sieges. Have they even fixed perks yet? Crikey, they can't even fix what they already have let alone add more content.
 
I'm just speculating here, but maybe developing a whole game with it's own engine isn't the same as hacking up a mod?
A whole game? Have you played Native BL? After 4 years of development from a stable build they showed (PC Gamer 2016), it feels like they actually evolved the game backwards, never mind this last year of EA. If you also understand the scale of mods that are in development right now, you would also understand that these "hacked" up modders are working at an incredibly quicker pace than TW, WITHOUT proper source code!
Well I don't want to be the "devil's advocate" but it resumes quite well the reality:
  • They want to involve the players to iron out any issues and refine the game.
  • They want to bring the game to the level that both community and TW is expecting.
  • They are "hoping" for a productive and efficient EA.
  • During the course of EA, there may be various problems (performances, AI siege...), missing features (banners...) and content (quests...)
Um, forgive me for misunderstanding, but your first three jot notes only specify TW's expectation of the game, again questioning the reason for EA if not community. The last jot is exactly my point, the examples(save for quests?) you provided have been already provided by the community, again raising a similar question, what has EA accomplished for TW exactly except for fuller coffers?

"How is it that TW is able to charge AA(a) price tag for a skeletal sidegraded version of WB, only to rely on the free working community members to flesh it out?" ==> It is too early to affirm that TW is relying on the modders to flesh the game out.
My first paragraph in the OP? I know it may not read as powerful since I didn't bother for direct quotes, but if you've been around the forums in the past years, or have been following development and Q&A, you would understand that this thought process of relying on modders have been encouraged by TW heavily.
 

sabatonsky

Sergeant
If i may put in my piece of coinage into this bank of debate.
I dont know how things were but i do know that first M&B and Warband also were in EA for a very long time before they got released. i dont know how was the communication back then, but afaik original M&B started as a 3 faction game to evolve into what we know now. And that was made after feedback.
Second thing is that we all forgetting a major factor: global pandemic. this MAY have screwed up the development much.
3rd thing is we dont know how they work... or as some of you may say: how they dont work....
Maybe they listen to all our suggestions and try to bring them to life... or they just drink tea all day and talk about the speed velosity of an unladen swallow!... and they discuss which is fater: European or African.
Truth is we dont know, and we can speculate only...
My speculation is this: i refuse to believe that they are just lazy people, who sold their unfinished stuff to some dummies and are sitting there laughing at our stupidity.... i think all we have to do is try and be as much constructive in our criticism as we can. EVEN if we think that our criticism is not being heard. On this forum there are many threads which are basically: Screw you talewords you suck, this game sucks, everything sucks. If i were TW dev i would ignore forum at all, and focus on my job... cause everyone hates obnoxious people throwing insults.....
TL;DR: we waited 8 years for it. Lets wait couple more!... or smth, i dont know, im stupid
 

Magello

Sergeant
Well I don't want to be the "devil's advocate" but it resumes quite well the reality:
  • They want to involve the players to iron out any issues and refine the game.
  • They want to bring the game to the level that both community and TW is expecting.
  • They are "hoping" for a productive and efficient EA.
  • During the course of EA, there may be various problems (performances, AI siege...), missing features (banners...) and content (quests...)
"How is it that TW is able to charge AA(a) price tag for a skeletal sidegraded version of WB, only to rely on the free working community members to flesh it out?" ==> It is too early to affirm that TW is relying on the modders to flesh the game out.
For sure we may question the fact that they leave obvious bugs (ladders) which clearly upset a lot of players.
But for now, the game is still under development, and hopefully they will be able to deliver "the nature and scale of game that they have envisioned" in Q4 2021...
If this is your reality I have a wonderful bridge in Brooklyn to sell you.
 

SOku

Veteran
Are they planning to release that game on last gen consoles anyway ? On current-gen consoles, all those AIs and mecanics previously mentioned seem more than doable, given how clean the hardware is.
 
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