Snowball Effect Fix

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Ranger243

Recruit
I know this has been an ongoing issue with the game so far and that there have been several different patches and updates meant to help address this so I wanted to share something that I did to my own game that has seemed to work rather well. So far I only got to about 900 days in game so take it with a grain of salt as this may not be the end-all be-all but I do still have all factions remaining on the map, some are rather larger than normal and some are rather smaller, but they are all still around. What I did to fix this was a sort of combination of mods and personal edits to said mods. Firstly I used the Character Trainer mod and Tyni's Bannerlord Fixes as the mods to fix this. Tynis Bannerlord Fixes is a mod that makes the leadership experience perks work for the whole stack and allows an edit to change the amount of xp given per person in the stack. I edited this number to double the native value so that troops in stacks will receive double the xp normally given by the perk multiplied by the number of troops in the stack. My next step was to use the Character Trainer mod to export, edit, then import every single noble in the game at the very beginning, before I even walked off to do the tutorial. In my edit I gave every single noble 25 Leadership skill, which gives them enough Leadership to be able to select one of the perks.

What this means is that now when a lord loses a battle and has to run around recruiting all those peasants they are able to actually train the peasants into a semi-capable fighting force provided they aren't promptly engaged in battle and defeated again. This has resulted in much more balanced armies and noble parties which means that the battles are much more even, or at least a little more balanced than before, so a faction that happens to win a single battle doesn't suddenly become an unstoppable force. This also means that the player is less likely to engage with a lord that has an army of 87 Battanian Peasants and 3 Highborn Warriors, instead facing armies that have almost no T1 troops and a much heavier assortment of T2-4 troops.

This leads to my suggestion now. While I understand that implementing the leadership perk, and subsequently the exact xp amount edits, may not be precisely in line with the thinking of everyone, I do think that at least allowing each noble to start with a minimum of 25 Leadership skill so that they are at least training some of the troops at the very beginning would be a massive step towards fixing the current snowball effect. Fixing the leadership perks so that the xp applies to the entire stack rather than to just a single unit would also be a massive step in the right direction I think but at the very least the 25 Leadership edit would allow the nobles to have a basis for training troops outside of hopefully surviving multiple battles enough to get a few decent men to keep the rest of the plebs alive long enough to train up themselves, resulting in more even battles during wars and helping to prevent the snowball effect.
 
I know this has been an ongoing issue with the game so far and that there have been several different patches and updates meant to help address this so I wanted to share something that I did to my own game that has seemed to work rather well. So far I only got to about 900 days in game so take it with a grain of salt as this may not be the end-all be-all but I do still have all factions remaining on the map, some are rather larger than normal and some are rather smaller, but they are all still around. What I did to fix this was a sort of combination of mods and personal edits to said mods. Firstly I used the Character Trainer mod and Tyni's Bannerlord Fixes as the mods to fix this. Tynis Bannerlord Fixes is a mod that makes the leadership experience perks work for the whole stack and allows an edit to change the amount of xp given per person in the stack. I edited this number to double the native value so that troops in stacks will receive double the xp normally given by the perk multiplied by the number of troops in the stack. My next step was to use the Character Trainer mod to export, edit, then import every single noble in the game at the very beginning, before I even walked off to do the tutorial. In my edit I gave every single noble 25 Leadership skill, which gives them enough Leadership to be able to select one of the perks.

What this means is that now when a lord loses a battle and has to run around recruiting all those peasants they are able to actually train the peasants into a semi-capable fighting force provided they aren't promptly engaged in battle and defeated again. This has resulted in much more balanced armies and noble parties which means that the battles are much more even, or at least a little more balanced than before, so a faction that happens to win a single battle doesn't suddenly become an unstoppable force. This also means that the player is less likely to engage with a lord that has an army of 87 Battanian Peasants and 3 Highborn Warriors, instead facing armies that have almost no T1 troops and a much heavier assortment of T2-4 troops.

This leads to my suggestion now. While I understand that implementing the leadership perk, and subsequently the exact xp amount edits, may not be precisely in line with the thinking of everyone, I do think that at least allowing each noble to start with a minimum of 25 Leadership skill so that they are at least training some of the troops at the very beginning would be a massive step towards fixing the current snowball effect. Fixing the leadership perks so that the xp applies to the entire stack rather than to just a single unit would also be a massive step in the right direction I think but at the very least the 25 Leadership edit would allow the nobles to have a basis for training troops outside of hopefully surviving multiple battles enough to get a few decent men to keep the rest of the plebs alive long enough to train up themselves, resulting in more even battles during wars and helping to prevent the snowball effect.

The snowball effect which to me is more about wars and a lot of em at the same time which one faction cant take along with resources at hand.
An faction winning one battle isnt unstoppable later. Ive been loosing a lot of battles with my faction and still went out on top in the end. What is a problem though is when the faction you picked or any other faction gets in to a war with almost every faction in Caldaria and they just roll in with every force they have. Factions starting war with em and they starting wars with others right in the middle of it which makes no sense if they arent powerful enough at the time that is. Asking for leadership buff is just asking for the same thing but with heavier troops all the time which might make the statement of the one winning a batlle is going to become even more powerful true.
I still see diversities on the battlefield later on during wars so dont see what people are saying that a team is filled with 87 peasants and 3 highborn warriors. Sure some teams can have a lot of fresh troops though but it isnt consistent as people are painting it up to be and isnt the issue i think about the snowball effect. And to be frank i dont want to face a lot of high tier troops all the time either because of the new armor sponge system. Would make the battlefield more like an The division game
Im running 1.3 version atm and behold Vladians have been conquered by the computer Battania and Aserai by em selves.so there´s balancing going on during the devs updates atm it seems
 
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IMO the snowballing is a complex and not so easy to fix problem with a lot of factors currently supporting the snowballing on the map.
It cannot be that the map is 80% owned by one faction before my children come of age.

Aggressiveness of the AI
The AI is very aggressive, to some degree in a self-destructive way. This leads to a map in constant multi-sided war. The faction that is smart enough to only engage in one or two wars, might show snowballing potential starting in mid-game.

Aimless Warfare
There is no strategy to wars. The AI chooses a random target at a random place and tries to conquer it. Give the AI war goals when declaring a war. If that is achieved it increases the chance of peace. If it is not achieved just as well.
Without focusing on specific goals, the AI overextends itself and leaves its territory vulnerable to the other wars.

Expansion
Expansion should be slower. Taking new territory all the time was not a given fact in medieval warfare. In combination with wargoals and subsequent piece, the AI and player should both be required to pacify the conquered region.

Diplomacy
Meaningful diplomacy, meaning actual treaties, alliances and so on, would also limit snowballing and keep steamrolling factions in check. A sophisticated diplomatic system might even prompt the AI to form pacts against too powerful kingdoms.

Politics
Internal politics as of now are based on relation only. The only thing happening is lords leaving one kingdom and joining another.
To limit fast overexpansion, lords and cities should be able to rebel and even found their own realms given sufficient influence. The requirement to solve such internal conflicts should also make the AI less aggressive in terms of foreign policy.

Troops
AI lords definitely need a hand in training and maintaining a military force. However, currently lords raising new troops too quickly is a problem favouring snowballing. The problem is on one hand that defeated lords will continue to fight with mainly recruits, prompting them weak in a war. On the other hand they constantly throw troops into a war with unlimited manpower supply.
A balance between keeping lords in prison long enough, having them lick their wounds long enough and then cheating them nice parties could be a solution.

These are just some suggestions, also inspired from other games (that work totally differently), so I am not sure if it can be translated into Bannerlord. But it seems like the current limit in available diplomatic and political features works against a balanced in-game progression of the world map.
 
I won't disagree with either of your points, there are definitely other things that make for the snowball effect coming into play, however one of the biggest things that I have personnally noticed, and thus fixed temporarily via mods, is the recruit armies. It has made a massive difference in my games in the first years to have done this, the major countries that typically snowball for me (Vlandians and Khuzaits mostly) have been kept in check by the other countries and I very strongly believe it is due to the fact that the lords are able to actually train thier replacement troops rather than constantly rushing into battle with an army of recruits. Maybe this issue has been fixed in 1.3, I am just now starting a new game for the 1.3 branch so I can't say I have any real experience with it just yet but this has allowed those countries that are in multiple wars, and thus using every single recruit around (annoying if you are trying to find troops of the same type if I say so myself) to actually fight with decent troops rather than simply recruiting a full stack and then promptly losing the whole thing in the next major battle because it was mostly recruits.

It has been said that the snowballing effect is different for everyone so this may not be the fix for you but given that it has worked so well for me I would have to say that it is definitely a step in the right direction.

I have to say my biggest snowball offenders tend to happen within the first two or so years of the game, those that win the first early battles or get a lucky siege suddenly become top dogs by wiping the faction that lost that battle/battles and taking thier lords. Changing this so that those lords have actual troops in their armies means that even if they lose a battle they still have a snowballs chance in hell should they happen to run into another enemy lord later on, rather than simply having a peasant army get slaughtered by a trained army of troops that didn't see a defeat or Pyrrhic victory.
 
I won't disagree with either of your points, there are definitely other things that make for the snowball effect coming into play, however one of the biggest things that I have personnally noticed, and thus fixed temporarily via mods, is the recruit armies. It has made a massive difference in my games in the first years to have done this, the major countries that typically snowball for me (Vlandians and Khuzaits mostly) have been kept in check by the other countries and I very strongly believe it is due to the fact that the lords are able to actually train thier replacement troops rather than constantly rushing into battle with an army of recruits. Maybe this issue has been fixed in 1.3, I am just now starting a new game for the 1.3 branch so I can't say I have any real experience with it just yet but this has allowed those countries that are in multiple wars, and thus using every single recruit around (annoying if you are trying to find troops of the same type if I say so myself) to actually fight with decent troops rather than simply recruiting a full stack and then promptly losing the whole thing in the next major battle because it was mostly recruits.

It has been said that the snowballing effect is different for everyone so this may not be the fix for you but given that it has worked so well for me I would have to say that it is definitely a step in the right direction.

I have to say my biggest snowball offenders tend to happen within the first two or so years of the game, those that win the first early battles or get a lucky siege suddenly become top dogs by wiping the faction that lost that battle/battles and taking thier lords. Changing this so that those lords have actual troops in their armies means that even if they lose a battle they still have a snowballs chance in hell should they happen to run into another enemy lord later on, rather than simply having a peasant army get slaughtered by a trained army of troops that didn't see a defeat or Pyrrhic victory.

Not sure if its totally fixed yet but it seems a little bit more stable now though. Khuzs still rolling a little but my faction Empire atm is holding em off pretty well, However i was surprised to see that Battania survived for once conquering almost whole Vladia together with Aserai which make me both happy but little bit concerned to that it got "quick patched" in favor of the other so to speak. Have to do couple of more other runs to make sure
 
Not sure if its totally fixed yet but it seems a little bit more stable now though. Khuzs still rolling a little but my faction Empire atm is holding em off pretty well, However i was surprised to see that Battania survived for once conquering almost whole Vladia together with Aserai which make me both happy but little bit concerned to that it got "quick patched" in favor of the other so to speak. Have to do couple of more other runs to make sure

I have also had the feeling that it really isn't as bad these days. Also, I am sorry but any fix that includes mods is not a real fix, more like a temporary bandaid. Those mods are likely to break as new patches come out, especially when devs try to address the issue themselves (as they have and will keep doing, since some of the fixes they introduced are temporary).
 
I have also had the feeling that it really isn't as bad these days. Also, I am sorry but any fix that includes mods is not a real fix, more like a temporary bandaid. Those mods are likely to break as new patches come out, especially when devs try to address the issue themselves (as they have and will keep doing, since some of the fixes they introduced are temporary).

But im not running any mods at all and couldn't report in like i do if i did. Wouldnt feel right, accurate and also embarrassing if it turned out to be the mod that was messing with the game. But yeah youre right in that sense if i misunderstood. However im def gonna mod the **** out of it when it releases because i love mods except when they are cheesed, non lore OP and cheaty! but each have their own taste and its alright in SP. I hope decapitation mod works better then and is more polished which is the Nr1 im gonna install like the inner barbarian c64 in me xD
 
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But im not running any mods at all and couldn't report in like i do if i did. Wouldnt feel right, accurate and also embarrassing if it turned out to be the mod that was messing with the game. But yeah youre right in that sense if i misunderstood. However im def gonna mod the **** out of it when it releases because i love mods except when they are cheesed, non lore OP and cheaty but each have their own taste and its alright during SP

Oh the part about mods wasn't really referred to you, more to the OP, sorry I should have specified. And yes, heck yes. Mount and Blade is all about mods, it's just a little early for them to be stable (honestly it's impressive that we even can mod the game at this stage, I don't know of any other game that allowed mods of this scope this early).
 
Oh the part about mods wasn't really referred to you, more to the OP, sorry I should have specified. And yes, heck yes. Mount and Blade is all about mods, it's just a little early for them to be stable (honestly it's impressive that we even can mod the game at this stage, I don't know of any other game that allowed mods of this scope this early).

ah yes i forgot and it makes sense ^^ yeah heard someone said that they even started modding without any propper tools or program to do it yet which says a lot about the fan base :smile: And yeah thats also why i love this company because they are genuine gamer oriented and think about their costumers first not money as most of todays. They def deserve Game company of the year in my book with all the responses they been making for the community to
 
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I really like the idea someone posted in this thread. If peace treaties had a set time determined by relationship between factions and/or how rough the war was on both sides, leading to longer and longer peace treaties, that could extensively slow down snowballing.
 
Oh the part about mods wasn't really referred to you, more to the OP, sorry I should have specified. And yes, heck yes. Mount and Blade is all about mods, it's just a little early for them to be stable (honestly it's impressive that we even can mod the game at this stage, I don't know of any other game that allowed mods of this scope this early).

I never said anything about the mods being the fix, in fact I actually stated that it was my method of a temporary fix until the leadership tree gets fixed. My suggestion was to allow all lords to have a minimum of 25 leadership so that they can all get a training perk right out of the gate rather than only the few lords that lead armies getting them. If all lords are able to actually train troops right out of the gate then the peasant armies won't be as numerous, something that I personally found to be incredibly boring once you get to late game where its pretty typical for a 1,000 man army to have about 500ish peasants in it making it basically just a walking xp farm rather than something to actually be wary about engaging, not to mention that in simulation those peasants get straight smashed by higher tier troops which allows for lords with significantly less men to take on bigger groups and crush them, which further leads to a lack of recruits being available for the defeated lords to replenish with, which means no armies to fight back with which means no defense as the enemy rolls down on top of them and slaughters them abd wipes them out.
 
I never said anything about the mods being the fix, in fact I actually stated that it was my method of a temporary fix until the leadership tree gets fixed. My suggestion was to allow all lords to have a minimum of 25 leadership so that they can all get a training perk right out of the gate rather than only the few lords that lead armies getting them. If all lords are able to actually train troops right out of the gate then the peasant armies won't be as numerous, something that I personally found to be incredibly boring once you get to late game where its pretty typical for a 1,000 man army to have about 500ish peasants in it making it basically just a walking xp farm rather than something to actually be wary about engaging, not to mention that in simulation those peasants get straight smashed by higher tier troops which allows for lords with significantly less men to take on bigger groups and crush them, which further leads to a lack of recruits being available for the defeated lords to replenish with, which means no armies to fight back with which means no defense as the enemy rolls down on top of them and slaughters them abd wipes them out.

That could work in principle, but not with the way training perks work right now. 30xp to one unit per day is largely irrelevant. Hopefully it will be addressed in the near future though! And yes, you would guess that any Lord leading an army would at least have 25 Leadership wouldn't you.
 
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