Smithing selling nerf

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ashize9879

Recruit
Hmm...gotcha gotcha

From what I can see, I feel like the issue to start to adjust the economy of the world is products such as low tier goods being food goods being grain being priced accordingly

Dinars I think you said, I'd have to see how they work.

I have a feeling in my mind that if the goods surrounding Smithing are scaled correctly to their correct price, we can scale Smithing to its correct price within those
 

ashize9879

Recruit
I just saw your latest post. I like the mods, I'll have to try those to see what you've done with it

How does trade, upkeep of armies and being able to make war and keep going financially work in the mod?

Like, you said other ways of financing outside of smithing: how do they balance with the mods?
 

Oltopeteeh

Recruit
other ways of financing outside of smithing: how do they balance with the mods?
I deliberately played without using blacksmithing and went through the game... let's just say, a little easier than the first part. And for the empire, and against the empire, and captured everyone in the sandbox (for the purity of the experiment).
Therefore, I think that mods, as a rule, can solve the problem with finances.
Including, by legal means, without breaking the balance.

For example, you can earn more on difficult battles in the arena, in tournaments.
You can automatically trade, according to the script, and not manually, by entering the cities.
You can order the use of blunt weapons and massively sell prisoners. Including the trick to sell 50k+ at once to increase the skill from 240 to 330 in one sale.
You can massively capture lords as prisoners, put them under lock and key, and, refusing to ransom, calmly capture their cities.
In the original game, this simplicity can only be achieved by executing everyone. Because the new lords created to replace those who have been killed... are very weak. And they cannot be pumped by legal methods. Only the player can execute. the result - a deceitful traitor bends everyone and everything, a law-abiding citizen who neglects blacksmithing - suffers, suffers where another goes through life without straining at all.

goods surrounding Smithing are scaled correctly to their correct price, we can scale Smithing to its correct price within those
Ok)
Base (default) cost:
hardwood - 25
iron ore - 50

Coal = 2 wood, or 2 coal on 3 wood.
25*2 (50) / 3 = 16.67 (~16).

Iron1 = coal. Coin to coin.

I made a mod where the by-product is spent instead of coal and didn't notice much of a difference compared to the original game.
Except that I began to sell surplus pig iron much less often, and the need for wood with coal became ... not so acute that it constantly spins in Batania, next to villages that produce a bunch of wood in industrial quantities. And the Aserai are trying, poor things, yes ...

An important point. I do not consider the value of stamina, because. "just wait", click and wait again - this is not a reason to inflate the price of the final product dozens of times.

Iron2 = 32+
Iron3 = 64+.
Iron4 = 128+.
Iron5 = 256+.
Iron6 (max) = 512+.

If we take into account the stamina, then the price of Damascus can reach up to a thousand coins per bar.
From 4 Damascus and a little steel to smelt a sword for 5k - normal.
50k is not good. 150k+ - too bold, overkill :smile:
 

ashize9879

Recruit
Hmm...I wouldn't mind you taking the lead on assisting in economics balancing if it was possible.

And yes, in the game, I've tried the execution strategy, as I expected realistically a kingdom would fall a part the moment I captured their castles and towns. That didn't work, so I was like...hmm...ok, kill their leader. I didn't want bad relations, but wanted to control their kingdom, which I guessed would happen by taking their stuff. This did not happen, and even executing their leader only incurred never having their relations with me again and a new leader

I tried executing several of their clan leaders > only made things worse.

So...yeah...the execution part of the game really does nothing for anyone currently, other than to ensure you will never gain lords from their kingdom

I suppose all it does is take out potential army leaders
 

Akka

Sergeant at Arms
Alternative solution - make smithing take time and remove the smithing stamina so that you can't craft dozens of complex weapons in a fraction of an in-game second. But it will be most likely annoying for most of the players.
I don't understand why they went with this weird "stamina" system rather than the much more logical "it takes time", which amounts to exactly the same thing but in a much more natural way...
 
You still can be a millionaire using just smithing and forgetting about trade completely. If anything, it should be nerfed more,
 

SadShogun

A Furtherer of the Calradic Cause
Developer
Hey, thank you for the discussion and great ideas presented here, I read all of the posts until here and as one of the balancers of the crafting system I want to point out several things.
  1. These are not final values, and I think since there will always be space for improvement there won't be a final value or formula to solve problems, just continuous iteration to achieve something better. For example, with the new high penalty on weapons in place we can look at the crafting order system and find ways to revise its rewards or order distribution.
  2. The nerfs to the item values had two ideas in mind.
    1. First was the discrepancy between the smithing and other income methods. After unlocking certain parts through the crafting piece "lottery", a player would create tremendous amounts of money without a hassle and while we know it is optional we would like the "weapon" which came out from the smithing to feel special and rewarding as well rather than its pure monetary value.
    2. We introduced the item order system to promote smithing as a profession, however without rather low trade penalties this would not be very meaningful as the items you crafted by and sold in the market would nearly made as much money as the ones ordered by the customers.
      In order to increase that gap, we made the following decision, if you're selling to the market "immediately" then you will get very bad prices, because there is no immediate demand to luxury items such as Tier 5+ swords, hence we implemented the progressive trade penalty (higher penalty items penalized with increasing amounts). On the other hand the orders created by the lords and notables are actual "demands" which requires to be fulfilled thus, if a person spends time and effort to match the demand (instead of mass producing a certain high-valued recipes) they're rewarded accordingly
I hope the recent changes to the weapon prices would make the game experience better as the smithing will still provide a considerable income when player's master it rather than a "early game dominant strategy" some players has to follow because of it's overwhelming advantages. This way, players can explore other ways income and provide feedback on different economic systems as well.

As always thank you for your discussion, ideation and feedback.
 

Ask

Sergeant
Hey, thank you for the discussion and great ideas presented here, I read all of the posts until here and as one of the balancers of the crafting system I want to point out several things.
  1. These are not final values, and I think since there will always be space for improvement there won't be a final value or formula to solve problems, just continuous iteration to achieve something better. For example, with the new high penalty on weapons in place we can look at the crafting order system and find ways to revise its rewards or order distribution.
  2. The nerfs to the item values had two ideas in mind.
    1. First was the discrepancy between the smithing and other income methods. After unlocking certain parts through the crafting piece "lottery", a player would create tremendous amounts of money without a hassle and while we know it is optional we would like the "weapon" which came out from the smithing to feel special and rewarding as well rather than its pure monetary value.
    2. We introduced the item order system to promote smithing as a profession, however without rather low trade penalties this would not be very meaningful as the items you crafted by and sold in the market would nearly made as much money as the ones ordered by the customers.
      In order to increase that gap, we made the following decision, if you're selling to the market "immediately" then you will get very bad prices, because there is no immediate demand to luxury items such as Tier 5+ swords, hence we implemented the progressive trade penalty (higher penalty items penalized with increasing amounts). On the other hand the orders created by the lords and notables are actual "demands" which requires to be fulfilled thus, if a person spends time and effort to match the demand (instead of mass producing a certain high-valued recipes) they're rewarded accordingly
I hope the recent changes to the weapon prices would make the game experience better as the smithing will still provide a considerable income when player's master it rather than a "early game dominant strategy" some players has to follow because of it's overwhelming advantages. This way, players can explore other ways income and provide feedback on different economic systems as well.

As always thank you for your discussion, ideation and feedback.
The order system is a great addition and it really showcases the whole aspect of becoming a smith by trade. I really enjoy that you can get a lot of experience, money and relations through it as you level up, instead of being a hobbyist smith that casually becomes rich for no good reason.

Point 2.1 was always my biggest gripe. I love smithing custom wacky weapons that aren't easily available by default like swinging massive pikes or blunt polearms and such. Once your smithing level goes up and you want to upgrade your gear, you're left with your older gear. At first, it sells for little, but as you reach higher levels and get a lot of parts, they start selling for a lot. It sure as hell is awkward even if you're not using smithing as a money making way to throw away 60k polearms every time you upgrade. Sure, you can just smelt them back to craft more weapons instead but it's always more convenient to sell it back and buy more weapons to smelt down for materials. Eitherway, it shouldn't be up to the player's self control not to exploit systems 😆 It simply doesn't feel right.

The only change I would make to keep it as a strong late game option to make money (after all, the idea isn't to nerf it into uselessness) would be to have every city guaranteed at least 1 order that pays out in between 50k to 100k denars depending on the prosperity. That way completing all 6 orders in a city would pay somewhere around 100k to 150k. Considering the waiting times for orders to replenish, you would be able to do a loop in about 8-9 cities, easily make over a million denars, need to wait a few days for orders to replenish everywhere and then start over. Still miles ahead of other money making methods for the time being but now it's not a money printer on demand, just a money printer you can access once a week. And becoming a travelling smith sure is more interactive than sitting in the same city wading through menus and spam clicking forge until you're rich.

Eitherway I'm glad to see that the whole economy is being worked on to make more things viable and to make grinding denars a less tedious part of the game so that we can focus on actually playing the game
 

ashize9879

Recruit
The order system is a great addition and it really showcases the whole aspect of becoming a smith by trade. I really enjoy that you can get a lot of experience, money and relations through it as you level up, instead of being a hobbyist smith that casually becomes rich for no good reason.

Point 2.1 was always my biggest gripe. I love smithing custom wacky weapons that aren't easily available by default like swinging massive pikes or blunt polearms and such. Once your smithing level goes up and you want to upgrade your gear, you're left with your older gear. At first, it sells for little, but as you reach higher levels and get a lot of parts, they start selling for a lot. It sure as hell is awkward even if you're not using smithing as a money making way to throw away 60k polearms every time you upgrade. Sure, you can just smelt them back to craft more weapons instead but it's always more convenient to sell it back and buy more weapons to smelt down for materials. Eitherway, it shouldn't be up to the player's self control not to exploit systems 😆 It simply doesn't feel right.

The only change I would make to keep it as a strong late game option to make money (after all, the idea isn't to nerf it into uselessness) would be to have every city guaranteed at least 1 order that pays out in between 50k to 100k denars depending on the prosperity. That way completing all 6 orders in a city would pay somewhere around 100k to 150k. Considering the waiting times for orders to replenish, you would be able to do a loop in about 8-9 cities, easily make over a million denars, need to wait a few days for orders to replenish everywhere and then start over. Still miles ahead of other money making methods for the time being but now it's not a money printer on demand, just a money printer you can access once a week. And becoming a travelling smith sure is more interactive than sitting in the same city wading through menus and spam clicking forge until you're rich.

Eitherway I'm glad to see that the whole economy is being worked on to make more things viable and to make grinding denars a less tedious part of the game so that we can focus on actually playing the game
This, this is brilliant ^^
 

Alcedo

Regular
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I don't understand why they went with this weird "stamina" system rather than the much more logical "it takes time", which amounts to exactly the same thing but in a much more natural way...
Well, I'd love it to be like that but will everyone?
 

ashize9879

Recruit
Well, I'd love it to be like that but will everyone?
I would think of ways of how to implement such a method

Currently it seems like the game creators used the wait system for multiple purposes. It passes time, allows you to affect healing on yourself and troops from your Surgeon skill and relate to one specific perk that allows you to heal faster in Towns. It also affects your...Steward skill I believe it is, that provides the perk of +5 loyalty in a city for each day you stay there, plus the time with wife or husband if they are governing the city or in your party, or staying in the same city or place

It's a simple multitask tool, which works well for its current purpose
 

Oltopeteeh

Recruit
In theory, the waiting time is typical for farm-type games.
For example, there is a cRPG mod based on MB. There the expectation is justified. True, with the reward for the work done (payment terms), the authors screwed up a little, but oh well, that's not the point. They are not TW, need to gain experience somehow :smile:

It would seem, okay, MB and waiting is not a problem.
But the time for full recovery of stamina is half a minute. All heroes at once.
Realistically, time yourself with a clock and see how insignificant this piece of mechanics is for the forge as a whole.

Actually, that's why I threw out the waiting time from my advanced calculations for the mod, because it's a waste of time, half a minute and a couple of clicks cannot increase the cost of resources by orders of magnitude (tens of times).
Since in the arena - tournaments, trade, quests, battles, etc. clicks are much more and moreover, meaningful, such as choosing the direction of the direction of attack. And in the forge it's just ... wait, click-click, wait, click-click, and behold, you are a millionaire. Well, or the owner of several thousand dinars, out of the blue. It would be more honest to win the lottery than "this".
 

ashize9879

Recruit
True, the stamina bar could be removed in exchange for something else

I theorized about what you would do for Smithing then, such as a timer for completion of a weapon varying by the weapon type. However, would you be stuck in the town watching a timer go by or how would it work?

In theory, the waiting time is typical for farm-type games.
For example, there is a cRPG mod based on MB. There the expectation is justified. True, with the reward for the work done (payment terms), the authors screwed up a little, but oh well, that's not the point. They are not TW, need to gain experience somehow :smile:

It would seem, okay, MB and waiting is not a problem.
But the time for full recovery of stamina is half a minute. All heroes at once.
Realistically, time yourself with a clock and see how insignificant this piece of mechanics is for the forge as a whole.

Actually, that's why I threw out the waiting time from my advanced calculations for the mod, because it's a waste of time, half a minute and a couple of clicks cannot increase the cost of resources by orders of magnitude (tens of times).
Since in the arena - tournaments, trade, quests, battles, etc. clicks are much more and moreover, meaningful, such as choosing the direction of the direction of attack. And in the forge it's just ... wait, click-click, wait, click-click, and behold, you are a millionaire. Well, or the owner of several thousand dinars, out of the blue. It would be more honest to win the lottery than "this".
Based on what you said, how does Smithing work without the timer for your mod?
 

Oltopeteeh

Recruit
Specifically, I do not have stamina in the crafting formula, as unnecessary. And the formula itself is far from the standard of work through the forge. Because I quickly noticed when trying to edit the tables that some details do not change in the game, regardless of the specified data. Or the changes are partially applied. Let's say a bow - you can change the weight, but not the damage. And editing wood raises its price dramatically and removes saddles from sale. Small but annoying bug. After such tricks from the game, I preferred to create copies that would not be so strongly influenced by hardcode, which is difficult to find in the bowels of the project. As a result, I have both looters with the letter b and craft through the settlement menu, and not the forge engine, and much more ... through an alternative connection. All for the sake of avoiding strange jokes from incomplete modification of default things)) If you are interested, I can attach the source codes of the mod, screenshots and so on. And in short, we click the city - district - 4 tab - create a wooden pitchfork, we get them, we lose three trees, 1 coal, experience is accrued through the add xp x limit (multiplier) command. In a workshop, a workshop for non-combat items, for example, now there is a stub, 1 experience for any item, grain beer, or silver jewelry - everything is the same, because. until the hands have reached the full balancing of this part of the module.

____
About adding a timer - I thought about it. Even when doing similar projects. Logically, just waiting and actively playing are two opposite activities. Therefore, it is reasonable to add a mini-game, with the right clicks, we get a bonus to the item's stats, save resources, increase relations, impress the audience ... and vice versa. Offhand, I like the idea of connecting the most elaborate mechanics - battles. Roughly speaking, the Forge is a kind of tournament. 4 stages, 4 crafting parts. We want a cooler handle, for example, we take a negative effect for a round, let's say the enemies will be on horseback, but we won't. A one-handed weapon without a shield. Half shells, etc. . Legend, for not contradicting the canon - additional conditions for increasing the reward, in general terms, we get permission to craft, order, excluding open parts, but only once. If you want one more cool thing - win the tournament again :smile: This removes the problem of irrelevant prizes, adds activity to our craft as a military discipline, etc. And at the same time, it does not overload developers beyond measure, because most of the functionality is already there and well balanced.
 
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xGreedo

Regular
Hell no smithing selling weapon prices should be nerfed even more I would even go as far as saying make the player unable to sell crafted weapons all together it will never be balanced.
If you want free money (because this is what smithing is in this game) enable cheats.
 

humility925

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
It's not free money, it's lot of clicking and many day due limited of stamina and resource (as time went by in the game, wood and iron number slow down to point, meanwhile it's painful to leveling smithing over 150 skill while too many to unlock),

Now while selling high value should little be nerfed, but lowest values shouldn't losting money after spent lot of click and buying resource to craft, it's took lot of time to get there and many day due stamina and search resource to craft in middle or late game (Early game often had high number of resource, but it's will go down as time went by, however, at least in sandbox)

Nice to able to craft weapon/armors. And nice to had quest that need charcoal for winter time, so go on, so smithing is not all about weapon, what if quest need charcoal or iron to make nail, or what not and paid more and gave you more exp rather than weapon itself, so go on.
 

Lornloth00

Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
What's with the obsession with nerfing the game on this forum? I think smithing is fine the way it is now so I am against nerfing smithing. If they were to nerf smithing then they need to buff passive income in the game especially caravans because they barely make a profit and are pointless in the late game. Fiefs income sucks especially if you have to pay out tribute to aggressive Kingdoms. The tribute system is a mess right now which leads to the player relying on smithing to hold their kingdom together.
 

xGreedo

Regular
What's with the obsession with nerfing the game on this forum? I think smithing is fine the way it is now so I am against nerfing smithing. If they were to nerf smithing then they need to buff passive income in the game especially caravans because they barely make a profit and are pointless in the late game. Fiefs income sucks especially if you have to pay out tribute to aggressive Kingdoms. The tribute system is a mess right now which leads to the player relying on smithing to hold their kingdom together.
Because the point of this game is its economy. But i guess you haven't figured it out yet.
 
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