Smaller clans ARISE! Affinity and Military Alliances.

Would like for international relations to be deeper and the possibility of smaller clans to rise up?

  • Yes! A lot! This would make the world feel much more alive!

    Votes: 69 84.1%
  • A little, maybe. It does seem somewhat interesting and realistic.

    Votes: 10 12.2%
  • I don't know. Feels a little overly complex. But then again, relationship do are complex...

    Votes: 2 2.4%
  • Not really. It's all too confusing. I like simple straight war and kill like it currently is.

    Votes: 1 1.2%
  • Not at all. I don't want to care about what anyone thinks of me killing X clan's leader.

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    82

GG Cannon

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I am creating a new post because I've just noticed, I forgot to mention one aspect of relations in the global scale that are very important in my recent post about Duels, Wars, Strife and Rivalries, and this could make the world very much more Dynamic while also giving a better growth curve to the main quest, so I wanted to give more focus to this aspect instead of just editing that post.
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There are two VERY interesting changes that could and would happen to the game by splitting the current relations system in 3 and not making war something instant against a whole kingdom when you attack a single clan of them, but adding the possibility of a more personal strife between the clans, and that would be the possibility of other individual mercenary clans rising up to a kingdom of their own, just as you do in the main quest campaign when you take your first territory, as well as the fall of a kingdom when they lose all their territory, splitting their clans back again into several individual clans.

And in the main quest, when you first attack someone in order to start a "war" with their kingdom so that you can take one of their castles and become a kingdom yourself, currently, as soon as you become a kingdom, that war ends, because they were at war with you as a clan, not with you as a kingdom, which is weird.

In this 3 relations system, or 3RS for short, by attacking someone while still only a clan, you would start a strife with their clan individually, instead of a war against the whole kingdom, and lose a small amount(from -3 to -5) of "Clan Affinity" to every clan that is neutral to them within their kingdom and a significant amount(10+) to any clan that has a positive relation to them even if they are not of their kingdom, relative to how much the two clans like each other, but 1.25 times more when they are of the same kingdom due to "duty", while at the same time gaining a certain amount(from +3 all the way up to +25) Clan affinity to all clans that hate them, again 1.25 times more if they are of a kingdom they are currently at war with or have an active strife against.

This means that, even after you become a kingdom in the main quest, you'd still have a strife with that clan and depending on how well liked they were, at more risk of immediately being at war with their kingdom.

International Relations among Kingdoms and Clan affinity within clans of the same kingdom and within clans that are not should be randomized at the start of the game, so that each game feels slightly different.

The same randomization should happen between Personal Affinities, but the randomizations should take into consideration the previous one in the sequence International, Clan, Personal.
So if two kingdoms, due to the randomized international relations, hate each other, the clans within those kingdoms should have a higher chance of also hating each other and a smaller chance of having positive Clan Affinities with one another.
And if two clans have a low affinity with one another due to that randomization, it would mean that members of these clans would have a higher chance of starting the game with a lower personal affinity with one another and a smaller chance of having a high personal affinity with one another.

This would make it more important for you to "know people" and give a reason for you not to just mindlessly attack someone or somewhere, as you'd have to consider how that attack would impact your relations to other clans and other kingdoms, both positively and negatively. Which is both more interesting and immersive than the current system.

Just as well, there would be the possibility of smaller clans becoming kingdoms of their own, by starting a strife with a clan that has a fief and taking that fief for their own. They would then pick a random name out of a list of possible kingdom names for their clan leaders "faction", so the Jawwal would be an Aserai or Khuzait name, Skolderbrotva would have a Battanian or Sturgian name and so on.

At the same time, a clan that leaves a kingdom and keep their fiefs would have the possibility of joining another kingdom OR starting a new kingdom of their own as well, which would also create the possibility of two clans from different kingdoms that hate the majority of clans or severly hate the ruler clan within their own kingdoms but have a very high affinity to one another to both quit their kingdoms and start a new kingdom of their own together.

Lastly, with high "Average Clan Affinity"(ACA) among two kingdoms and good "International Relations" value among them, there could be the possibility of forming a military alliance with a new dialogue option appearing when talking to their ruler, where both kingdoms will be at war with enemies of both kingdoms. This could also be employed on the clan level, where with a high "Average Personal Affinity"(APA) and also a high "Clan Affinity" among both clans, there would appear a new dialogue option when talking to that clan's leader, where both clans would be at strife with all strife enemies of both clans.

These changes would give more depth to the world, more complexity to international relations, make the player have to think more about diplomacy even on the path of war and also make smaller clans more alive and more important in the world.
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deGoucan Scrolls Index

 
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Marcodatti

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This is a must, politics and relations make the game feel alive, and make the battles even more fun
 

DominvsRex

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It's a fact that diplomacy leaves much to be desired. That being said, I have faith our dev team will give us more to that effect.

As a long time player and as a developer for a popular mod, I would also like to throw my voice towards truly meaningful and in depth alliances/truces/ even interkingdom bartering. Give us a true reason to be a ruler, because as it stands I can easily guide the world to my will through a large influence base as a simple vassal.
 

GG Cannon

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This is a must, politics and relations make the game feel alive, and make the battles even more fun
Right? And also, military alliances are one HUGE aspect of international diplomacy that currently does not exist in the game and would make a big difference overall in how one handles other kingdoms when they go through the path of creating their own kingdom.

As someone who played a lot of Total War games, there are a few things I find missing when it comes to diplomacy and I truly believe this 3RS I suggested could help pave the path to a better politics and diplomacy system to the world of the game while also making interpersonal relationships more meaningful and interesting.
 

GG Cannon

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It's a fact that diplomacy leaves much to be desired. That being said, I have faith our dev team will give us more to that effect.

As a long time player and as a developer for a popular mod, I would also like to throw my voice towards truly meaningful and in depth alliances/truces/ even interkingdom bartering. Give us a true reason to be a ruler, because as it stands I can easily guide the world to my will through a large influence base as a simple vassal.
Now that you mentioned, it would be truly interesting to have interkingdom bartering, and it could serve to create another aspect of international diplomacy I miss from games like the Total War franchise which is "Trade Agreements" and "Military Access", together with the "International Relations" I proposed.
If "Military Access" is added, it would be interesting to see International Relations being damaged if you breach the border of another kingdom with your armies without a Military Access, or gaining International Relations with their enemies when doing so. Also, receiving a warning when war enemies breach your border with their parties and armies if you don't have Military Access with them, and the same could be employed with clans that don't belong to your kingdom and you are not at war nor has a strife with, needing to request Military Access to their clan's leader to breach their territory with your parties and armies so as not to lose Clan Affinity with them.

This would also fit very well with the "Messengers" suggested by @cyresdog in his "Immersive Things that i think would be good for the game" post so as to not need to enter their territory with your personal party in order to request a conference.

You could trade in fiefs, agreements, treaties and big deals between two kingdoms.
Also maybe marriages, sending ambassadors to create an embassy and things of the sort.

It could also prove important to create a system where you declare which town of your fief, when you are a ruler, is the capital of your kingdom, which would be the place embassies from other kingdoms would be raised after a deal is made in interkingdom bartering.
 

Jasimyel

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Look we need this to look cloak and dagger style as well. Diplomacy and roguery goes hand in hand so this suggestion is the best!
 

nknaite

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This also will make kingdom wars more meaningful, i like it. This ties up with another good sugestion of a record system for big wars or batles.
 

GG Cannon

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This also will make kingdom wars more meaningful, i like it. This ties up with another good sugestion of a record system for big wars or batles.
And make a more realistic basis to invite clans into your kingdom 👌
I'd really like to be able to convince Lady Ira, daughter of Rhagaea to join my kingdom, either creating a new clan or joining my clan as a companion and forfeit her mother's clan.
 

Urbanski

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Yeah, I like it.

It adds a lot of depth to the relations, inter faction and between factions.

I'm wondering how difficult this would be to code & implement though. The Total War series which goes much deeper into the diplomacy aspect had a similar system with families (clans) within your faction (and other factions) vying for prominence. The seeds of that appear to be in Bannerlord, I'm just wondering how far they want to take this aspect....I hope to see something similar developed.
 

GG Cannon

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Yeah, I like it.

It adds a lot of depth to the relations, inter faction and between factions.
Thank you :giggle:

I'm wondering how difficult this would be to code & implement though. The Total War series which goes much deeper into the diplomacy aspect had a similar system with families (clans) within your faction (and other factions) vying for prominence. The seeds of that appear to be in Bannerlord, I'm just wondering how far they want to take this aspect....I hope to see something similar developed.
Exactly because of how complex it might be to code, I believe this should be added as native content instead of being left for modders, as it would lose a lot as a mod, besides possibly being very unstable, while if it is something native, it adds a TON of value and new possibilities to the vanilla gameplay, possibly over thousands upon thousands of hours of playtime just by politics, diplomacy and relationships alone.

I'm also a Total War player and always liked diplomacy and politics there very much. As I feel a lot of influence from Total War into Bannerlord, I kind of miss it a LOT.
I also believe they will mess and create a lot in that front, I really wanted to pitch in my suggestion and, if possible, provide some ideas and inspiration as well to the devs.

The perfect game, to me, would be a fourway fusion between Bannerlord, the Total War franchise, Age of Empires and the Elder Scrolls (split in two versions, one with magic and mythical creatures, and one fully realistic without magic)
A game with tactical planning in real time and massive wars like both M&B and the detailed war commands of Total War, a real economy like Bannerlord has, with the ability to build and destroy anything anywhere, deep diplomacy, politics and relationships and which if you wanted, you could play it from beginning to the end entirely in first person view from one side of the world to the other roleplaying a LOT.
That's the dream...
 

Urbanski

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Thank you :giggle:



Exactly because of how complex it might be to code, I believe this should be added as native content instead of being left for modders, as it would lose a lot as a mod, besides possibly being very unstable, while if it is something native, it adds a TON of value and new possibilities to the vanilla gameplay, possibly over thousands upon thousands of hours of playtime just by politics, diplomacy and relationships alone.

I'm also a Total War player and always liked diplomacy and politics there very much. As I feel a lot of influence from Total War into Bannerlord, I kind of miss it a LOT.
I also believe they will mess and create a lot in that front, I really wanted to pitch in my suggestion and, if possible, provide some ideas and inspiration as well to the devs.

The perfect game, to me, would be a fourway fusion between Bannerlord, the Total War franchise, Age of Empires and the Elder Scrolls (split in two versions, one with magic and mythical creatures, and one fully realistic without magic)
A game with tactical planning in real time and massive wars like both M&B and the detailed war commands of Total War, a real economy like Bannerlord has, with the ability to build and destroy anything anywhere, deep diplomacy, politics and relationships and which if you wanted, you could play it from beginning to the end entirely in first person view from one side of the world to the other roleplaying a LOT.
That's the dream...
It's a good dream.

Realistically for Bannerlord if we can get a more fleshed out diplomacy / relations / influence mechanic it would add so much to the game, expanding the content exponentially and meaning play throughs can take years, not weeks.

From what I understand the modding community is immense on M&B so I'm really excited to see what they come up with once the dev kit is available. LOTR full conversion, GoT full conversion, Feudal Europe conversion etc...

If TW don't expand diplomacy and this is literally all we have I think the modders would build it...so either way I think we will get what we want or something very close to it...fingers crossed.

In the meantime I think it's important to keep these ideas at the top of the pile so the devs know it's something we want...keep those dreams alive my friend :smile:
 

GG Cannon

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Realistically for Bannerlord if we can get a more fleshed out diplomacy / relations / influence mechanic it would add so much to the game, expanding the content exponentially and meaning play throughs can take years, not weeks.
Right?! Like, its one of the biggest aspects of being human and human interactions, so I would not be lying to say that I have very high expectations to the effect of having a more fleshed out relationship, politics and diplomacy system in the game when it comes to game content.
It could possibly make you continue playing for several ingame years even after you finish conquering every single fief in the world.
SPECIALLY if there is the possibility of insurections, coup and other similar things where clans forsake you and try to create a new kingdom by themselves banding together.

Even more so if they decide to one day employ a "Legacy" system, where after your character dies of old age, you'd choose one of their sons and daughters to play as and a new quest would start for the battle for the throne, in case you didn't clearly pick a successor and went through all the motions of ensuring he or she would take the throne, where the kids would split the empire fighting again.

If they add the possibility of concubines it would be even more interesting, specially if some clans that their leaders had a bad relationship with you and their clan disliked your clan were also to get in the fight to try and become the emperor themselves.

From what I understand the modding community is immense on M&B so I'm really excited to see what they come up with once the dev kit is available. LOTR full conversion, GoT full conversion, Feudal Europe conversion etc...

If TW don't expand diplomacy and this is literally all we have I think the modders would build it...so either way I think we will get what we want or something very close to it...fingers crossed.
I will be truthful with you and say I dislike mods and modding very much... I've had some terrible experiences with mods and modding communities as a whole.
Its not the same to say that I will never use a mod again, but I have deep feelings against them and would very much prefer to never use mods again if possible.
Even more so, I have a deep dislike for the Nexus Mod Manager website and forum for personal reasons I very much prefer not to disclose.
So the fact that Bannerlord mods use the Nexus Mods website and not the Steam Workshop is a BIG issue for me.
I will probably try one mod or another of the serious world changing ones, like LOTR, GOT and the likes, but probably only those like that.
I will not go through the trouble of installing like 300 mods and trying to fix things and get to work well together probably ever again.

So I very much advocate that game companies should make the effort to make the game as complete, fun and free of bugs and issues as humanely as possible and leave the mod community only the gag content and serious world changing stuff, like jokes and stuff that create a completely new world outside of the scope of the game already complete with a single mod.

But that is me. Something personal.
I don't have anything against people that likes mods and actively use game.
I just find a serious problem with leaving good and interesting game changing content for mods as I'll probably never use them...

If at least TaleWorlds had their own mod portal, possibly integrated with this forum, or everyone used the steam workshop, instead of modders using Nexus, that would already be a big plus for me and would make me more inclined to tryout mods in the game, but I can't and have no right convince anyone to not use Nexus because I hate them personally, so I just avoid it myself as much as possible...
 

Lilkidlover

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It's a fact that diplomacy leaves much to be desired. That being said, I have faith our dev team will give us more to that effect.

As a long time player and as a developer for a popular mod, I would also like to throw my voice towards truly meaningful and in depth alliances/truces/ even interkingdom bartering. Give us a true reason to be a ruler, because as it stands I can easily guide the world to my will through a large influence base as a simple vassal.
Ikr! Im hoping that they add diplomacy to this game, alliances, marriage alliances, trade treaties etc. Also making npcs have ambitions and goals is a must so that interacting with them becomes meaningful.
 

GG Cannon

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Ikr! Im hoping that they add diplomacy to this game, alliances, marriage alliances, trade treaties etc. Also making npcs have ambitions and goals is a must so that interacting with them becomes meaningful.
I think that if they add this 3R System I suggested together with @MightyMidgit's marriage suggestions in his thread, this game will have such a depth of content that playtime will be measured in dozens of weeks instead of hundreds of hours xD
Might become revolutionary in matters of game immersion for years to come, as, if they add a dynasty system/new game+, people would play indefinitely and even dozens of years in the future, the game would still have a very faithful player base just out of people that feel a meaningful connection to their character and that character's relationships.

These are some of those things that drive immersion through the roof, or at least, so do I believe.
 

Lilkidlover

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I think that if they add this 3R System I suggested together with @MightyMidgit's marriage suggestions in his thread, this game will have such a depth of content that playtime will be measured in dozens of weeks instead of hundreds of hours xD
Might become revolutionary in matters of game immersion for years to come, as, if they add a dynasty system/new game+, people would play indefinitely and even dozens of years in the future, the game would still have a very faithful player base just out of people that feel a meaningful connection to their character and that character's relationships.

These are some of those things that drive immersion through the roof, or at least, so do I believe.
ohhhh yesss ive read this thread before and i love it! this would make us feel so free in this game and i completely agree with you, adding all of these things to the game would add sooo many hours of gameplay. i mean i will play this game forever but imagine that one day you can look at your family tree and see all your descendants what lands they held, or looking at all the different little ways that different characters used to get power and control, how they mixed with other clans, i mean the longevity of this game would be infinite. i would really want to see my siblings trying to kill me because im the heir or the king damn! there are so many things i want! hahahahaha feeling connected to our characters, as you well said, is what gives games a place in the in our hearts. awwwwww so cute! hehehe. but yeah i love this game already but i love even more the possibilities it has.