Slings

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Geroj

Sergeant at Arms
I think this weapon is really wrong made in game, on 200 or higher skill i cant hit man 20m in front of me, but skilled (and i say skilled not expert) slinger can hit head at 15-20m without problem and standing man at 30-40 and its range is compared to composite bow
also projectiles -rocks have +1 damage and only 20 rocks? rocks that are for free and slinger can get them almost anywhere on ground, large bag of arrows have 40 arrows and large sack of slingshots only 23
lead bullets should have +5, 6 or 7 damage

when i hit target ingame with military sling with lead bullets 5m before me I make around 50 damage and he is still standing and attacking... I am not best slinger but i tried to hit something small as head at 10m and i hit it several times with greek technique, lead bullet can penetrate even 3mm iron plate so its instant kill if you hit someones head

overall to make slings more realistic i suggest +40/50% accuracy and more projectiles in bag -stones 50 or 60 or even more, lead far more damage and around 30 projectiles in bag,
from wiki "The simplest projectile was a stone, preferably well-rounded. Suitable ammunition is frequently from a river. The size of the projectiles can vary dramatically, from pebbles weighing no more than 50 g (2 oz) to fist-sized stones weighing 500 g (1 lb)"
so there is no need to carry only few rocks in your pockets

and maybe clay projectiles? also i can make models if you want
 

Idibil

Grandmaster Knight
I have look this well for dont overpower slings over others ranged weapons.
I take note of your ideas.
 

Geroj

Sergeant at Arms
Can help with that also dont want sling overpowered
here is good site to start
http://www.lloydianaspects.co.uk/weapons/sling.html
so 100-150g stones like this can make far more damage than arrows at close distance (15-20m)
slstones.jpg



here is image -I hit red one into head (that was probably 40-60% chance)
Yellow one in common tunic, took 3 hits, 2 in belly and one in arm (50% chance to hit him somewhere at 15m)
mb2m.jpg


here is red one with rock in head , he was almost near me some 10m, thats pretty weak compared to real life sling (even my crappy skills) and not to someone who practiced with sling from childhood like shepherds or profi skirmishers
mb3xq.jpg

and my character have around 205 sling skill

 

Idibil

Grandmaster Knight
Problem is that sling is cheap.
Maybe I should add more time enter shot and shot for compensate more damage
 

JuJu70

I think you have to be careful here. Rocks were the main projectiles and I don't think they can penetrate your armor (if you have one). So unless it's a headshot I don't see how the damage has to be increased in general. Leadshot should be much more expensive. Other than that - it's a balancing act - if I need 2-3 javelins to kill someone, why suddenly slings will be more dangerous?
 

shostak

Squire
The main strength of a sling throwing rocks is the concussive force having the power to break bones and easily put a man out of action. However, this is Mount and Blade, where you can have a spear through the chest, a thrwoing axe in your helmet and be peppered with arrows and still fight on. Shock and pain have no effect here, although perhaps lead shot in particular should be more powerful, dealing more damage.
 

Geroj

Sergeant at Arms
hmmm thats hard to say.... that needs serious research!  :grin:

Yes, sling si cheap weapon and easily done but slinger need lot more training to use it properly instead bow needs few hours of training to aim somewhere before you and release arrow at enemy mass, but you need years of practice to became accurate and skilled with bows
sling need weeks maybe months of training to just shoot somewhere before you and change ranges by releasing stone in right moment
arrow have more penetration damage so it can kill enemy with armor but slingshot just bounce from helmet, padded or leather armors absorb slingshot damage etc.., so slingers are better on unarmored/lightly armored targets, more mobile and can cover themselves with shields ( because they can arm sling with one hand) so they can be good anti-archer unit ingame (higher athletics and shield) and also cheap ranged weapon for poor as it is now in mod (farmers and other plebs)

I can take rock from pouch insert it in sling aim and hurl in 8 sec, ingame it is 3 or 4 sec? soooo maybe it can be slower a little
but slings needs to be more accurate rather than with more damage -military sling have 63 accuracy so maybe 73?? -where can i change this values so i can test it without using python?

and power skill add damage to sling?

and can projectile in M&B also increase accuracy and not only damage of shot? this can be good compromise for reality and game limits
 

geala

Sergeant at Arms
I'm also interested in slings, sling myself a little bit, and would like to give some of my impressions. I'm sorry for my English, I'm not a native speaker.

I would be very careful about giving much more power to slings. There is a reason why slings never were used on a large scale in war. Or, there are some reasons. Firstly, it's not so easy to hit with it, you have to train a lot. Some special groups managed to become experts with the sling, the Balearic people or the Rhodians were renowned for it in antiquity. They were also used be the Celts to some extent, looking at the huge stone masses found in British hill forts. But the reservoir of experienced people was always small, poor shepherds being the obvious choice. You can achieve astonishing precison with a sling, aiming for the face or eye instead of the body with enough training, but not so many had it. Many only used slings parttime (Roman soldiers for example). The sling was in use rather long, even today it is still used in street war (Intifada f.e.). There are reports of 17th century German youths who annoyed their surroundings with slinging.

So the sling was still in use at such a late date, but not as a weapon of war. Why not? Because the sling is effective, but not particularly effective. Sling bullets attain about the same energy as arrows shot from a weak or medium bow. The exact energy of sling bullets remains a bit cloudy. References in literature range from 13,5 foot-pound = 18,4 Joule (From Sumer to Rome: The Military Capabilities of Ancient Armies, R.A. Gabriel/ K.S. Metz, Westport 1991, pg. 75 - much too low estimated imho, although the authors made some tests) to 75 Joule (Die Reiter Roms, Teil III: Zubehör, Reitweise, Bewaffnung, M. Junkelmann, Mainz 1992, pg. 173 - a much better approximation imho), others give numbers between. 75 Joule is a little bit more than arrows from medium powered bows gain, but a lot less what arrows achieve if shot from really powerful bows (f.e. English war bow/"longbow"of 150 lbs, resulting in energies of about 140 Joule). To compare: a medium pistol bullet (9 mm Luger) has an muzzle-energy of about 500 Joule, a medium rifle bullet (.308 Winchester = prior 7,62x51mm Nato) an energy of about 3500 Joule.

Pages about slings in the internet are rather problematic. Often the authors have more enthusiasm than scientific approach. A rather good report can be found here, with actual test results given. Edit: I'm not allowed to link, sry; search for the-ballistics-of-the-sling by Thom Richardson on slinging.org. The author is not skilled, ancient and medieval skilled sling users would have achieved far higher energies, but the tests give some impressions. Much better than some other pages. I know of one page where the author compares the effectivity of sling bullets to a .45 ACP pistol bullet (about 500 Joule muzzle-energy). Everybody with the slightest idea of terminal ballistics of projectiles can only shiver reading such a nonsense.

The greatest disadvantage of the sling bullet is that while having rather low energy, on par with an arrow, other than an arrow it cannot enter the body to such a depth that someone is incapacitated reliably. Headshots can kill, hits to bones can sometimes break them. Often just bruises were the results of hits however. For people with helmests, some armour or shields slings were more an annoyance than a deadly threat. We get this also from the reports of the Conquistadores who tell us that hits from Indian sling bullets to the unprotected head can result in death or blindness. A person with a helmet could sometimes be knocked down. However, the mass slinging of the Incas against the rather few Spaniards seemingly did not result in preventing them to destroy every Indian troop send against them. They only fear the sling the most because the other weapons of the Indians were even less impressive.

It is btw imho impossible that a lead sling bullet (ancient glandes weighted between 20 and 100 g, the most common weights in Greece and Rome seemingly at about 30 to 50 g), let alone simple stones, can penetrate 3 mm of iron. A video showing the contrary would of course change my mind. We tested some years ago an 1000 lbs crossbow and an 120 lbs longbow against plate armour and even neither of these very powerful projectiles were able to penetrate 3 mm mild steel (only the bullets of an also used late 15th c. gun could). A glans can penetrate the human skin and some flesh if it hits with the small edges, but that were no deep wounds. If it hit with the broad side, the energy density is much to low to enter the body. We know from Xenophon that lead sling bullets sometimes penetrated, but it becomes clear from what he writes that they just penetrated so deep to disappear in the flesh. That's not enough to reach important human organs.

I could write a lot more about it but the wall of text is already too much. Last remark: maybe slings could be sometimes anti-archer weapons. However, the English archers f.e. at Najera 1367 had no problems to destroy the Spanish slingers set against them with ease.

PS: Brytenwalda is a fantastic mod!  :smile: It's this mod that made me trying to play M&B (in which I'm still rather rather bad).  :mrgreen:
 

Geroj

Sergeant at Arms
I said iron and it means iron, it was something i found on ground, plate from some old box little rusty, it was not some carbon steel alloy and yes lead bullet made by me penetrated plate and ended deformated  :smile: -just for explanation for people that imaginated steel plate armor in front of my sling  :grin:
And want to add that long slings are good at long ranges but its only wasting of time and energy to sling with them at short distance, slingers always carry short more robust version of sling which can hurl 100-150g stone at short distance, if this hit you than you have more problems than bruises
but I agree, sling damage is good as it is, it can be little more accurate and have more ammo - I have added 10 bullets to lead and +5damage and set higher cost, +30 bullets to sling stones and damage unchanged and i must still hit unarmored targets 3-4x , also added +7 accuracy for slings
 

Idibil

Grandmaster Knight
I did a sling for try testing, and I saw it has very difficutl accuracy  :grin:


Well, We can play with these parametres with slings:

Sling Rocks -
Cost: 5
weight(0.5)
weapon_length(3) - size
thrust_damage(1,pierce) - damage
max_ammo(20)

"Sling Lead"-
Cost: 100
,weight(0.7)
weapon_length(3)
thrust_damage(2,pierce
max_ammo(20)

--------------
Weapon:

"Sling"
Cost: 30,
weight(0.5)
difficulty(0)
spd_rtng(80)
shoot_speed(50)
thrust_damage(17 ,blunt)
max_ammo(1)
accuracy(60) - distance

"Military Sling",

Cost: 90,
weight(0.5)
difficulty(0)
spd_rtng(85)
shoot_speed(55)
thrust_damage(21 ,blunt)
max_ammo(1)
accuracy(63)

"Fustibalus",

Cost: 110,
weight(1)
difficulty(0)
spd_rtng(70)
shoot_speed(75)
thrust_damage(22 ,blunt)
max_ammo(1)
accuracy(60)

Suggestions:???:






 

Geroj

Sergeant at Arms
Sling Rocks -
Cost: 5
weight(0.5)
weapon_length(3) - size
thrust_damage(1,pierce) - damage
max_ammo(50)

"Sling Lead"-
Cost: 350
,weight(0.7)
weapon_length(3)
thrust_damage(6,pierce
max_ammo(30)

--------------
Weapon:

"Sling"
Cost: 30,
weight(0.5)
difficulty(0)
spd_rtng(60)
shoot_speed(50)
thrust_damage(19 ,blunt)
max_ammo(1)
accuracy(70) - distance

"Military Sling",

Cost: 90,
weight(0.5)
difficulty(0)
spd_rtng(65)
shoot_speed(55)
thrust_damage(23 ,blunt)
max_ammo(1)
accuracy(73)

"Fustibalus",

Cost: 110,
weight(1)
difficulty(0)
spd_rtng(70)
shoot_speed(75)
thrust_damage(23 ,blunt)
max_ammo(1)
accuracy(70)
 
geala said:
I'm also interested in slings, sling myself a little bit, and would like to give some of my impressions. I'm sorry for my English, I'm not a native speaker.

I would be very careful about giving much more power to slings. There is a reason why slings never were used on a large scale in war. Or, there are some reasons. Firstly, it's not so easy to hit with it, you have to train a lot. Some special groups managed to become experts with the sling, the Balearic people or the Rhodians were renowned for it in antiquity. They were also used be the Celts to some extent, looking at the huge stone masses found in British hill forts. But the reservoir of experienced people was always small, poor shepherds being the obvious choice. You can achieve astonishing precison with a sling, aiming for the face or eye instead of the body with enough training, but not so many had it. Many only used slings parttime (Roman soldiers for example). The sling was in use rather long, even today it is still used in street war (Intifada f.e.). There are reports of 17th century German youths who annoyed their surroundings with slinging.

So the sling was still in use at such a late date, but not as a weapon of war. Why not? Because the sling is effective, but not particularly effective. Sling bullets attain about the same energy as arrows shot from a weak or medium bow. The exact energy of sling bullets remains a bit cloudy. References in literature range from 13,5 foot-pound = 18,4 Joule (From Sumer to Rome: The Military Capabilities of Ancient Armies, R.A. Gabriel/ K.S. Metz, Westport 1991, pg. 75 - much too low estimated imho, although the authors made some tests) to 75 Joule (Die Reiter Roms, Teil III: Zubehör, Reitweise, Bewaffnung, M. Junkelmann, Mainz 1992, pg. 173 - a much better approximation imho), others give numbers between. 75 Joule is a little bit more than arrows from medium powered bows gain, but a lot less what arrows achieve if shot from really powerful bows (f.e. English war bow/"longbow"of 150 lbs, resulting in energies of about 140 Joule). To compare: a medium pistol bullet (9 mm Luger) has an muzzle-energy of about 500 Joule, a medium rifle bullet (.308 Winchester = prior 7,62x51mm Nato) an energy of about 3500 Joule.

Pages about slings in the internet are rather problematic. Often the authors have more enthusiasm than scientific approach. A rather good report can be found here, with actual test results given. Edit: I'm not allowed to link, sry; search for the-ballistics-of-the-sling by Thom Richardson on slinging.org. The author is not skilled, ancient and medieval skilled sling users would have achieved far higher energies, but the tests give some impressions. Much better than some other pages. I know of one page where the author compares the effectivity of sling bullets to a .45 ACP pistol bullet (about 500 Joule muzzle-energy). Everybody with the slightest idea of terminal ballistics of projectiles can only shiver reading such a nonsense.

The greatest disadvantage of the sling bullet is that while having rather low energy, on par with an arrow, other than an arrow it cannot enter the body to such a depth that someone is incapacitated reliably. Headshots can kill, hits to bones can sometimes break them. Often just bruises were the results of hits however. For people with helmests, some armour or shields slings were more an annoyance than a deadly threat. We get this also from the reports of the Conquistadores who tell us that hits from Indian sling bullets to the unprotected head can result in death or blindness. A person with a helmet could sometimes be knocked down. However, the mass slinging of the Incas against the rather few Spaniards seemingly did not result in preventing them to destroy every Indian troop send against them. They only fear the sling the most because the other weapons of the Indians were even less impressive.

It is btw imho impossible that a lead sling bullet (ancient glandes weighted between 20 and 100 g, the most common weights in Greece and Rome seemingly at about 30 to 50 g), let alone simple stones, can penetrate 3 mm of iron. A video showing the contrary would of course change my mind. We tested some years ago an 1000 lbs crossbow and an 120 lbs longbow against plate armour and even neither of these very powerful projectiles were able to penetrate 3 mm mild steel (only the bullets of an also used late 15th c. gun could). A glans can penetrate the human skin and some flesh if it hits with the small edges, but that were no deep wounds. If it hit with the broad side, the energy density is much to low to enter the body. We know from Xenophon that lead sling bullets sometimes penetrated, but it becomes clear from what he writes that they just penetrated so deep to disappear in the flesh. That's not enough to reach important human organs.

I could write a lot more about it but the wall of text is already too much. Last remark: maybe slings could be sometimes anti-archer weapons. However, the English archers f.e. at Najera 1367 had no problems to destroy the Spanish slingers set against them with ease.

PS: Brytenwalda is a fantastic mod!  :smile: It's this mod that made me trying to play M&B (in which I'm still rather rather bad).  :mrgreen:

That so-called "wall of text", as you put it, was actually very interesting and informative. Thank you!
 

ahseph

Sergeant at Arms
WBWF&S
Hi, tried to search the board but couldn't find my answer,

Simple question: Are slings affected by Power Throw or Power Draw?

Cheers for any clarifications :smile:
 

makute

Squire
M&BWBVC
ahseph said:
Hi, tried to search the board but couldn't find my answer,

Simple question: Are slings affected by Power Throw or Power Draw?

Cheers for any clarifications :smile:
They are modified flintlock pistols, so, I assume they are not affected by any skill.

I concur in that slings and rocks are too powerful currently.
 

NacroxNicke

Sergeant Knight at Arms
In fact, slingers were used in the antiquity as anti-armour weapons for attrition fights, and they were sliced easily by archers.

I think that it's more tiring to protect yourself against a wall of stones with additional size going to your shield than a wall of arrows going to your shield

But those type of tactics are for really large armies, I really doubt that they were used in small skirmishes like in Brytenwalda
 
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