(Skirmish mode) The irrelevancy of 2 handed classes

Users who are viewing this thread

Yes Heavy infantry can not catch them right away, but they don't get kited as well as long as they chase. There are 3 other infantry classes that can catch and kill archers. Heavy Inf can not be the answer to everything.
Ok. I see exactly what you are trying to do with the balance. I’ll tell you why this philosophy doesn’t work for every faction as well as it should.

Firstly, what you are trying to do works perfectly fine for Sturgia, Battania, and Aserai. It works because all 3 of these factions have access to a light infantry who can pick a shield and spear at the same time. The infantry needs the spear because you can’t chase an archer while cav is harassing you, and it needs the shield to actually get close to the archer you are trying to chase. This design philosophy really hurts Vlandia, Khuzait and Empire infantry players. None of these factions have access to a light infantry class (aka one faster than an archer) who can deal with a kiting strategy.

In order for a heavy inf speed decrease to work for these factions, the perks of their light inf need to be slightly reworked. For Vlandia, the peasant needs to have access to a shield and spear perk on opposite sides of their perk tree so that both can be equipped at the same time. Same for the Rabble and Recruit. The alternative solution is giving the twohander inf small shields for these factions, but I don’t think you all are very keen on doing that yet.

Edit: I’ll add that this isn’t nearly as game breaking as some of the other things that you have already said you are addressing. As long as kicks, javs, and cav are definitely being reworked it won’t be the end of the world to roll out the changes you want to see for heavy inf this patch and see how it goes. If it doesn’t have the result you want, things can just be changed later. That’s the beauty of early access.
 
Last edited:
Yes Heavy infantry can not catch them right away, but they don't get kited as well as long as they chase. There are 3 other infantry classes that can catch and kill archers. Heavy Inf can not be the answer to everything.

But for Skirmish there is limitet picks.
I guess we will have to wait for the patch. But I wonder if lighter or shock classes will be worth playing in the end.
 
Yes Heavy infantry can not catch them right away, but they don't get kited as well as long as they chase. There are 3 other infantry classes that can catch and kill archers. Heavy Inf can not be the answer to everything.

Slowing heavy inf speed is a indirect Buff to archer classes, same goes with the nerf of throwing Weapons, please keep in mind that archer classes need a nerf, not a buff. Next patch seems like its shaping itself into a archer buff
 
Shock troops are getting a slight speed increase while the Heavy Inf gets a slight speed decrease in the next patch, also Crush Through for heavy weapons is almost completed, that will help. Finally, we are targeting to lower the amount of throwing weapons available to classes.

These 3 changes should help the Shock Troops, if it is not enough we will make more changes.

Hey AVRC, thank you for the specifics, they are very much appreciated. However, I'm concerned that slowing down heavy infantry will, as many people have already said, buff archers and hurt game balance. Kiting is already very easy to do. In fact, most infantry units (heavy or not) will struggle to effectively chase an archer. Here's what I mean:



As you can see, the infantry was consistently chasing the archer, but he had to hold up his shield or else he would get shot. What's more, if he didn't hold up his shield then he would get punished for chasing a poorly positioned archer (which makes no sense from a design perspective IMHO). Nine times out of ten, infantry either dies or doesn't catch the archer. I don't know if you have tested with this playstyle in mind; however, this is pretty much a meta. Based on this, I'd argue that heavy infantry actually needs a buff to speed, or heavy archers need a nerf.
 
If heavy inf didn't have access to projectiles and now with the speed disparity between 2-hand inf & heavy inf in the next patch, 2-handers are going to be untouchable with hit and runs. They could literally become shield eaters by doing one hit with a longer weapon then running away a bit with their soon to be sonic speeds. It would be up to cav and archers to take out 2-handers at that point
 
I cannot co
the Heavy Inf gets a slight speed decrease in the next patch

I cannot co-sign this.

Heavy inf in its current state is remarkably slow. Archers are already nearly able to kite them ad infinitum -and nerfing heavy inf's general speed will tip the scales even further in ranged's favor (the Bannerlord shooting mechanics are very user-friendly).

Now, if the speed decrease was based around lowering rotational speed/acceleration, then I feel like that would be more understandable. But, unless I'm wrong, the nerf is simply based around general foot movement speed.

This doesn't seem balanced.
Makes me nervous.
 
This doesn't seem balanced.
Makes me nervous.

To be fair he said the changes are very minimal. Right now the shock trooper class is so unviable in skirmish that I don't see these changes making too big of a difference (although it's to be seen regarding the crush through mechanic, I have no idea what that change entails).

It might be interesting if infantry had a base speed comparable to peasants or shock troopers, but a much reduced speed with shield up.

Ideally i'd like to see changes that make all classes equally viable, and right now the shock trooper is the least viable for skirmish.

Nothing is set in stone, all variables can be adjusted over time. I say bring on the changes, lets see things mixed up and go from there. We can't be too afraid of change or we'll never get anywhere, it's all about baby steps and iterations with plenty of constructive criticism.
 
Ideally i'd like to see changes that make all classes equally viable, and right now the shock trooper is the least viable for skirmish.

Nothing is set in stone, all variables can be adjusted over time. I say bring on the changes, lets see things mixed up and go from there. We can't be too afraid of change or we'll never get anywhere, it's all about baby steps and iterations with plenty of constructive criticism.
That is what we are aiming for.
 
When heavy weapons like 2 Handed weapons are blocked by lighter equipment some of the damage still goes through.

One of the greatest improvements of Bannerlord was not including that greathammer crushes-through-your-block mechanic. Surely adding unavoidable damage is anti-fun? It certainly sucked in Warband.
 
One of the greatest improvements of Bannerlord was not including that greathammer crushes-through-your-block mechanic. Surely adding unavoidable damage is anti-fun? It certainly sucked in Warband.

Literally everyone: two hander spam sucks

Tw: buffs two handers
 
provided the crush-through happens only with overheads (hard to land) and only with heavy hammers I think it can be balanced, hope it isnt activated for bots tho, else the hammerboys from captain might become quite overpowered

the great thing is that we are getting responses from a mp dev I never heard of before, changes can be reverted, dialog is what counts.
 
2h should never be viable as more than a gimmick because, well, as you can see to make it not a situational class, you have to give it buffs which are going to screw every other class in melee with a 2h. Lowering heavy inf speed, raising 2h classes speed, and giving 2h crush through when heavy inf are already too slow to catch some 2h classes after a block seems pretty bull****, especially when literally every other class is going to get **** on in melee by 2h because of crush through as well.

Taleworlds goal seems to be making the game a rock-paper-scissors matchup where 2h needs to be stopped by ranged weapons, but giving classes no way to beat a 2h in melee will be pretty stupid. Mount and Blade shouldn't be a MOBA where x class beats y class 100% of the time.
 
especially when literally every other class is going to get **** on in melee by 2h because of crush through as well.
warband had it and it wasnt op, we just need to test it before judging, but I do agree the speed changes do not appear good to me, since it encourages that scummy playstyle in which 2h classes spin around entering and leaving range and never block,

Taleworlds goal seems to be making the game a rock-paper-scissors matchup
I think the rock-paper-scissors gameplay inevitable and not that bad, spears counter cav, but cav can try to maneuver around it or wait for a distraction to attack with the help of the infantry, shield infantry may be weak against 2h, but they can work with their archers and cav to counter them

age of empires has a rock-paper-scissors gameplay, but that doesn't mean strategy doesn't come into play
 
I think the rock-paper-scissors gameplay inevitable and not that bad, spears counter cav, but cav can try to maneuver around it or wait for a distraction to attack with the help of the infantry, shield infantry may be weak against 2h, but they can work with their archers and cav to counter them

age of empires has a rock-paper-scissors gameplay, but that doesn't mean strategy doesn't come into play

Rn Cav is the rock, the paper and the scissors, same for javs.
 
When heavy weapons like 2 Handed weapons are blocked by lighter equipment some of the damage still goes through.

If this means side swings that are properly blocked can still cause damage that will be catastrophic.

I REALLY hope that this only applies too Hammers and upswings. Otherwise

NO
Just please give the twohanders some small shields instead and everything will be fine.
 
When heavy weapons like 2 Handed weapons are blocked by lighter equipment some of the damage still goes through.
If this means side swings that are properly blocked can still cause damage that will be catastrophic.

I REALLY hope that this only applies too Hammers and upswings. Otherwise

NO
Just please give the twohanders some small shields instead and everything will be fine.

Let's wait until we actually see the changes before we get outraged. I'm all for mixing things up right now. Chances are that shock troopers will still be weak in skirmish with archers and cav everywhere, but there are many things changing at once (feints, swing speed, block speed, spears/cav, crush through, etc). There's no real way to see how all of these changes will effect the game right now, might take hundreds of hours to properly identify issues. Expect there to be some issues at first, we can all provide constructive criticism and go from there.
 
Let's wait until we actually see the changes before we get outraged. I'm all for mixing things up right now. Chances are that shock troopers will still be weak in skirmish with archers and cav everywhere, but there are many things changing at once (feints, swing speed, block speed, spears/cav, crush through, etc). There's no real way to see how all of these changes will effect the game right now, might take hundreds of hours to properly identify issues. Expect there to be some issues at first, we can all provide constructive criticism and go from there.

Yeah. I obviously dont know what the exact details for the changes are. If they are what I think they might be, it will be absolutely terrible.

Giving side swings a crush through is an absolutely horrible idea. IF that is what the change is, it needs to be reverted before it even makes it to live. The twohanders in Bannerlord are fast enough where any kind of damage being delivered through a block could very easily create a stun lock that people would have a terrible time breaking out of.

It would instantly become the most unfun thing to fight against in bannerlord. When balancing something, you cant just focus on if something is fun to use. You also need to ask if it is fun to fight AGAINST. Player interactions are a two way street. I can guarantee that stun locks are not fun to fight against. Just give the shock classes some small shields and they are instantly balanced.

If by "equipment" he means "armor" then the change is completely fine. Twohanders doing more damage to lightly armored targets would solidify their role as a meatgrinder infantry that can deal a lot of damage quickly.

Expect there to be some issues at first, we can all provide constructive criticism and go from there.

That's exactly what is happening. There is an issue and we are providing constructive criticism. We don't have to actually playtest a stun lock to know it won't be fun to fight against.
 
Back
Top Bottom