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(Skirmish mode) The irrelevancy of 2 handed classes
- Thread starter Yukmouth++
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Shields are necessary for a class to be relevant, there is a reason in clan matches so far no one takes Kontos, 2handed classes, archers without a shield, you cannot move from point A to point B without being hit by a projectile or potentially picked off by a couch lance. The best classes according to clan matches so far are Heavy Infantry, Heavy Archers and Light Cavalry(until they have enough gold to spawn twice as Heavy Cav). Almost all factions have shields available to every one of these classes.
This has literally been a thing since early Warband competitive days, crossbowmen factions were favoured because they had shields by default (among other reasons) before people figured out the whole gear dropping thing.
This has literally been a thing since early Warband competitive days, crossbowmen factions were favoured because they had shields by default (among other reasons) before people figured out the whole gear dropping thing.
These statements contradict each other in a major way. You cant say that the solution to a balance issue will cause an imbalance. With things the way they are now (no shields) things are currently unbalanced. Being fine with things staying unbalanced because you dont want things to become unbalanced is pretty silly.
Then 2h are **** and must be given a way to become competitive
I personally am still in favor of giving them an armor perk, that improves their defence against missles.
But I guess the easiest solution, proposed by Gab/Silen back in Beta was simply giving them a shield, so they could engage safely.
But I guess the easiest solution, proposed by Gab/Silen back in Beta was simply giving them a shield, so they could engage safely.
Shield perk is the safest tweak for sure
I think maps could be more designed in a way to promote 2h classes a bit more too, the most guilty of which being the Aserai Tradepost with its big wide open points A and C, so easy to play archer and throw projectiles in this wide open map. Xauna should be the guideline for upcoming Skirmish maps, with its tight design, Archers do not have time to shoot 5 projectiles at Inf before said Inf gets to them. They only get 1 shot, 1 opportunity, to seize everything you ever wanted, in one moment, would you capture it ? or just let it slip? Yo, his palms are sweaty...
Tradepost is unplayable for inf, people dont bother anymore, its just a projectile fest all the time, and i've given up playing Inf as well, even when playing Sturgia i prefer to go Hunter in Tradepost, otherwise i'm frustrated and bored to death.
Tradepost is unplayable for inf, people dont bother anymore, its just a projectile fest all the time, and i've given up playing Inf as well, even when playing Sturgia i prefer to go Hunter in Tradepost, otherwise i'm frustrated and bored to death.
The class system screwed over two handers really. In 8v8 theres a hundred ways to kill two handers, including what KSMR said, and not to mention infantry teamwork. We started seing abit of 2 handers in 6v6 since theres much less chaos, but I cant see two handers really being viable in Bannerlord competitive.
First of all you can spot them a mile away, literally as you spawn in you'll know the enemy has a two handers. Even if that wasnt the case, once a fight is about to start the armour is a dead giveaway. In 6v6 warband a few 2 handed weapons kinda worked because they could be hidden, and then pulled out when the infantry fight actually starts. Hammers were pretty effective, they could also be hidden with spears/pikes.
The extra movement speed is nice and annoying in the actual fight but that relies on picking targets and fights that either arnt aware, or is out alone (which would usually be archers, who'll just gun you down.)
Like I said before, its a pubstomping weapon.
Infantry will never not be valuable, thats abit of the problem, as theyre not fun to play, but theyre manditory for any matchup, and with the current ruleset for competitive, atleast 2 players wont have fun.
First of all you can spot them a mile away, literally as you spawn in you'll know the enemy has a two handers. Even if that wasnt the case, once a fight is about to start the armour is a dead giveaway. In 6v6 warband a few 2 handed weapons kinda worked because they could be hidden, and then pulled out when the infantry fight actually starts. Hammers were pretty effective, they could also be hidden with spears/pikes.
The extra movement speed is nice and annoying in the actual fight but that relies on picking targets and fights that either arnt aware, or is out alone (which would usually be archers, who'll just gun you down.)
Like I said before, its a pubstomping weapon.
Infantry will never not be valuable, thats abit of the problem, as theyre not fun to play, but theyre manditory for any matchup, and with the current ruleset for competitive, atleast 2 players wont have fun.
Ideally, we'd have a mix of closed, good for inf maps, open good for cav/archer maps, and mixed. Which might be close to what we have now. Open, trading post. Closed, Xauna. Mixed, that market street one? forget the name, cant find it in map section. More people play then just 2-hander players, or even just inf players, but every map being open isn't cool for those that like playing that, same a every map being closed isn't cool for people who want to play archer or cav. However, don't think we'll get too many more maps until they give out tools to the community.
Also, I think Greed's comment is spot on.
Also, I think Greed's comment is spot on.
The first remark is my personal opinion. The second one is an explanatation of 2h in Competetive matches, without my opinion included. So what are you on about?
You admit you think they are terrible but you don’t want them to be fixed. They are allowed to be usable. Giving them small shields would make them usable.
Somewhat, it would probably help, footshots are still incredibly easy to pull off though and with shielding you move so slowly most archers wont struggle to make the shots. Might actually be better to duck n dodge and hope for the best. Giving them full sized shields would prevent footshots sure but then theyre a super light infantry with a heavy shield and a 2 hander? ?
Somewhat, it would probably help, footshots are still incredibly easy to pull off though and with shielding you move so slowly most archers wont struggle to make the shots. Might actually be better to duck n dodge and hope for the best. Giving them full sized shields would prevent footshots sure but then theyre a super light infantry with a heavy shield and a 2 hander? ?
It would be an immense help against javs, which kill as many as the archers. It would also help a ton at longer distance.
There's all kinds of ways you could make the viable without making them OP.
Here's some more ideas:
Shock troopers have a perk (or 2h weapons have the trait) of destroying shields much more rapidly, say 3 hits with a shock trooper destroys a shield. You could do the same thing for damage against horses. There's tons of useless perks among shock troopers - Savage has the option of sling, Berserker has the option of 1h sword? Give options of perks, say horse cleaver, shield breaker, arrow blocker, or thick skin (reduced projectile damage). These perks could come with some kind of accessory for identification, for example with Berserkers you could accompany the horse cleaver perk with the Ulfhednar cloak (I know that's potentially a lot of extra art work, but it would be quite cool imo).
If infantry is in the field without shields, the shock troopers will suddenly become much more valuable. Then it becomes a game of archers trying to pick eachother off to allow the shock troopers to hit the infantry. If you're able to sneak into an infantry line with a shock trooper and take out a shield or 2 and kill a horse, it would lend an appropriate identity to that role and mix up the dynamic of combat in what I think would be a fun and interesting way.
If you coupled this with reduced projectile damage to shock troopers (10-20%?) they could have viability and become interesting and meaningful.
Right now, if you look at the enemies team, compositions of archers, cavalry, and infantry all have an effect on your strategy and approach. When you see a shock trooper you pretty much just ignore it, meaning it has no real impact on the game aside from a few throwing weapons which might take out a cav.
Here's some more ideas:
Shock troopers have a perk (or 2h weapons have the trait) of destroying shields much more rapidly, say 3 hits with a shock trooper destroys a shield. You could do the same thing for damage against horses. There's tons of useless perks among shock troopers - Savage has the option of sling, Berserker has the option of 1h sword? Give options of perks, say horse cleaver, shield breaker, arrow blocker, or thick skin (reduced projectile damage). These perks could come with some kind of accessory for identification, for example with Berserkers you could accompany the horse cleaver perk with the Ulfhednar cloak (I know that's potentially a lot of extra art work, but it would be quite cool imo).
If infantry is in the field without shields, the shock troopers will suddenly become much more valuable. Then it becomes a game of archers trying to pick eachother off to allow the shock troopers to hit the infantry. If you're able to sneak into an infantry line with a shock trooper and take out a shield or 2 and kill a horse, it would lend an appropriate identity to that role and mix up the dynamic of combat in what I think would be a fun and interesting way.
If you coupled this with reduced projectile damage to shock troopers (10-20%?) they could have viability and become interesting and meaningful.
Right now, if you look at the enemies team, compositions of archers, cavalry, and infantry all have an effect on your strategy and approach. When you see a shock trooper you pretty much just ignore it, meaning it has no real impact on the game aside from a few throwing weapons which might take out a cav.
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Yeah 2h's shouldn't have shields in my opinion.
they should just double the unit speed and make them harder to shoot
So they stay useless.
This would solve their weakness to projectiles but it would also make them miserable to fight against.
In competitive, yes. They will always be useless.
Thats a bad thing when you can easily give them a single perk that would make them playable in comp while also leaving their TDM and siege balance unchanged.
(In warband every infantry class received a shield FOR FREE. IT WAS COMPLETELY POSSIBLE AND ENCOURAGED FOR TWOHANDER MAINS TO ALSO TAKE A SHIELD. THIS DID NOT BREAK SIEGE OR TDM BALANCE. IT ACTUALLY HELPED LIMIT PROJECTILE SPAM.)
