Skirmish Command

[Gabe123]

I already posted this in the mod ideas thread but I didn'y think I'd get feedback there so I started a new topic.

I'm sure this idea has been mentioned before somewhere on this site, but I was just wondering if anyone ever included a skirmish command in their mod. Oftentimes if I'm leading a khergit army into battle against another non-skirmish type force, they endup just getting into a massive melee even though they could be more effective if they ran about the map shooting arrows over their shoulders for awhile first. I know that I could tell them to follow me or hold a position from which they could fire at the enemy, but the enemy will eventually hunt us down if we are in one big group (following me) or just standing at the top of a hill. I just thought it would be cool if I could give a skirmish command which would make my troops run about in random directions, luring enemy infantry and heavy cav out of position and using hit and run tactics all on their own. They wouldn't need to follow me in one big group.

Tell me what you guys think, or, if this idea has already been beaten to death and/or implemented in other mods, maybe someone could point me to those threads/mods.

Much Appreciated

 

[omzdog]

I already posted this in the mod ideas thread but I didn'y think I'd get feedback there so I started a new topic.

I'm sure this idea has been mentioned before somewhere on this site, but I was just wondering if anyone ever included a skirmish command in their mod. Oftentimes if I'm leading a khergit army into battle against another non-skirmish type force, they endup just getting into a massive melee even though they could be more effective if they ran about the map shooting arrows over their shoulders for awhile first. I know that I could tell them to follow me or hold a position from which they could fire at the enemy, but the enemy will eventually hunt us down if we are in one big group (following me) or just standing at the top of a hill. I just thought it would be cool if I could give a skirmish command which would make my troops run about in random directions, luring enemy infantry and heavy cav out of position and using hit and run tactics all on their own. They wouldn't need to follow me in one big group.

Tell me what you guys think, or, if this idea has already been beaten to death and/or implemented in other mods, maybe someone could point me to those threads/mods.

Much Appreciated

You mounted missile troops automatically skirmish. Havn't you ever seen an enemy Kergit who shoots at you yet gallops in the opposite direction when you give chase? Although this isn't especially prevalent or outstanding, the AI does do it. Problem is some troops prefer to get in close, or have their melee weapons in the first slot (Kergit Lancers) and so they ride down the enemy while others shoot.

As for the Skirmish mod thats not a bad idea. A mod which features mounted missiles to give ground at a set rate or maybe create shooting circles (a historically accurate formation).

 

[Gabe123]

Yeah, that's more of what I meant, it just always seems like my horse archers rush into a melee long before they have put their 24 arrows to good use (I'm just assuming they have the standard sized quiver).

 

[Servitor]

Yea, That's why my personal mini-mod removes Khergit Mellee and gives them another set of arrows instead. It is in there, but the A.I. ain't very good yet.

 

[Nikola]

i think 2 100% ranged forces fighting each other would be cool

 

[zaldir]

Servitor; There's a problem with removing their melee.. When/if they have no more arrows, they have to start fist fighting.. On horse!!
Fist fighting on horse isn't excactly the best way to fight, now is it? ;p

What you should do is just give them a bow/crossbow as primary, and then 2 sets of arrows. And as secondary (4th slot) a sword/lance.
Though, maybe some of the archers already have this, but still they rush into battle early in the fight, then there's probably a problem/mistake with their AI...

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Nikola, that would be very cool, even though it would take ages to complete the battle ;p

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Gabe: I agree with you. There should be a skirmish command so that both mounted and unmounted archers would run away from the enemy. But the best would be if there were an skirmish "command" in their AI, so that if you've ordered them to hold their position, they would still run when the enemy comes too clso. (Yeh, I know here's their AI have integrated skirmish already, but that is only when you make your soldiers charge (And as Gabe says, it doesn't always work properly...)

 

[Felisenus]

It would be a nice idea for a mod, but I don't know how to make it work, frankly. A 100% ranged battle would be really boring, if you ask me, by the way. The two forces would be shooting at eachother for hours and the deathtoll would be terrific, even for the winning side. Not something you'd want to be in with your precious company of soldiers.

 

[Aera]

I´ve another problem with ranged troops in my mod.
The AI forms a line and waits that the player attacks.

 

[zaldir]

That happens sometimes in vanilla for me to... They just stay there, waiting for my troops... But after a while of just shooting at each other, they charge though...

 

[omzdog]

That happens sometimes in vanilla for me to... They just stay there, waiting for my troops... But after a while of just shooting at each other, they charge though...

Thats not a bug... its good tactics

Yeah, that's more of what I meant, it just always seems like my horse archers rush into a melee long before they have put their 24 arrows to good use (I'm just assuming they have the standard sized quiver).

I think AI has infinite missiles... so whats the point

 

[zaldir]

yeh, I know it's not a bug, but I wouldn't say it's good tactics either, since they do it sometimes when they don't have any archers...

 

[omzdog]

yeh, I know it's not a bug, but I wouldn't say it's good tactics either, since they do it sometimes when they don't have any archers...

That doesn't mean its not good tactics. The AI can decide to be on the defensive regardless of whether they have missile or not. Maybe you have ample cavalry and they want to for a wall so as not to spread their infantry thin 

 

[The Mercenary]

That happens sometimes in vanilla for me to... They just stay there, waiting for my troops... But after a while of just shooting at each other, they charge though...

Thats not a bug... its good tactics

Yeah, that's more of what I meant, it just always seems like my horse archers rush into a melee long before they have put their 24 arrows to good use (I'm just assuming they have the standard sized quiver).

I think AI has infinite missiles... so whats the point

It doesn't. Only in sieges I believe. Whenever I get caught traveling alone by those damned Steppe bandits, I stand with my back to a tree with a heater shield up until they run out of arrows. Then I move in and dismount them before I kill them.

 

[omzdog]

That happens sometimes in vanilla for me to... They just stay there, waiting for my troops... But after a while of just shooting at each other, they charge though...

Thats not a bug... its good tactics

Yeah, that's more of what I meant, it just always seems like my horse archers rush into a melee long before they have put their 24 arrows to good use (I'm just assuming they have the standard sized quiver).

I think AI has infinite missiles... so whats the point

It doesn't. Only in sieges I believe. Whenever I get caught traveling alone by those damned Steppe bandits, I stand with my back to a tree with a heater shield up until they run out of arrows. Then I move in and dismount them before I kill them.

Are you sure? becuase I've definitly seen AI shoot more than 40-50 arrows and no bag goes that high

 

[Shatari]

Are you sure? becuase I've definitly seen AI shoot more than 40-50 arrows and no bag goes that high

They probably have multiple bags of arrows. I've often seen the AI archers run out of arrows in normal combat.

 

[omzdog]

Are you sure? becuase I've definitly seen AI shoot more than 40-50 arrows and no bag goes that high

They probably have multiple bags of arrows. I've often seen the AI archers run out of arrows in normal combat.

Quite possible

 

[Gabe123]

Maybe if horse archers were given much more accuracy at high (or at least higher) range and faster horses so they could effectively skirmish from realistic distances, then maybe they would skirmish for longer and across a wider range of space. To make up for this, you could make them a lot more useless in hand to hand combat. Too often have I seen heavy knights get wasted in hand to hand combat with a horse archer. I think the abilities of the different classes should be more towards one extreme or another. This would mean more ranged kills from the horse archers and much less melee kills. Also, I don't like how the mounted speed difference between the heavy knights and the light horse archers is virtually nonexistent. I think that all that knightly armor should weigh the horse down a lot more and make him slower, so that horse archers can be more effective skirmishers, deploying succesful hit and run tactics on heavy troops, mounted or dismounted (As it is, the heavy knights can usually run them down). Also, I think that the Horse archer horses should have a much more extreme manouvre ability so that they can literally turn on a dime, fire, and then run (ala parthian shot).

So...to sum it all up for Horse Archers, they should:

have faster, more manouverable horses
much greater accuracy at high range
be much more useless in melee (even worse armor, and melee weapons that are largely inneffective against knightly armor)

And the knights should:

have even slower horses (because of their heavy armor)
have much greater ability in melee, especially against lightly armed troops
be more vulnerable to missile fire

I think this would mean that when Horse Archers and Knights come face to face, instead of a few shots fired and then a huge melee, the horse archers would fire many more and more deadly arrows so that the knights numbers will have been truly depleted before the ensuing melee engagement, in which the knights would have a huge qualitative advantage but a numerical disadvantage (because the archer volleys would thin out their numbers first).

And, of course, I realize that as it is horse archers are less effective than knights in melee and do get some ranged kills, but I think that the differences between the two should be much more effectively outlined.

 

[zaldir]

But the problem with the archers having light armor is that they are killed by one shot from another archer...

 

[Gabe123]

Which is why you give them better range and faster/more manouverable horses, so it is more difficult for foot archers to take them out. The horse archers would be further away and moving more quickly, a much more difficult target.

 

[zaldir]

yeh, I didn't think about that ;p

So you're right, I agree with you