Sieges are still a big fail after OVER A YEAR

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Keldar

Recruit
My god, I had been away for months hoping that the sieges would finally you know NOT SUCK. Instead my people STILL don't go up ladders and just stand around at the bottom of them waiting to be shot by arrows. This is such a major part of the game and it is to Failworlds total shame that it is still the messy crap that it is. Now I love some of the other things that have been improved but around a year was it that this was supposed to be in EA? Yeah try 5 years before its halfway decent. So disgusted with myself that I was tricked into paying a full price for a game that isn't even half done and thats being generious.

Honestly the only decent thing about this game is how great the modders are. So many talented people trying to make the game better and not even being paid to do it. Really disgraceful that failworlds is leaving it to unpaid modders to make their game better.
 
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goohu

Regular
Welcome to the club =).

Meanwhile all those turds left a positive review and never touched the game ever since.
 

Spinozart1

Sergeant
More downloads. YES. Soon we will be on first page of Nexusmods, muhaha.
I still didn't try RBM (I plan to) but I have a question for you.
Did you manage to actually determine the issue making the AI stucked in front of the ladders and second gate?
I mean, is it something obvious in the code?
Sorry if you already explained that elsewhere, was just wondering.
 
Ladders are obvious in the code and via common sense when you observe them for like 5 minutes, there is no reason for devs to not fix them other than lazyness or not caring at all (they could probably CTR+C, CTRL+V our code to fix them). Second gate is some sort of pathfinding bug actually, not obvious in the code but its possible that some change was done on map level or engine level that is causing the problem since it is problem mostly on level 2-3 castles since 1.5.9 (or 1.5.8?), so our fix of this is more of workaround.
 

Spinozart1

Sergeant
Ladders are obvious in the code and via common sense when you observe them for like 5 minutes, there is no reason for devs to not fix them other than lazyness or not caring at all (they could probably CTR+C, CTRL+V our code to fix them). Second gate is some sort of pathfinding bug actually, not obvious in the code but its possible that some change was done on map level or engine level that is causing the problem since it is problem mostly on level 2-3 castles since 1.5.9 (or 1.5.8?), so our fix of this is more of workaround.
Thank you!
Indeed we may question the fact that devs are not fixing the ladders, at least with a temporary solution.
I tested the AI module of RBM and I particularely like the way you managed to make troops to retreat and gather on every reinforcement in field battle.
Remembers me the first time I played with AD1257 (y)
I think it was the first mod I had installed after playing vanilla warband, and the difference in troop behavior was just incredible.
 

Ragratt

Squire
WB
Just hire these modders. Pay them and implement their code! TW should actively seek out moddeds who are able to improve AI and pathfinding. They clearly need help.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Just hire these modders. Pay them and implement their code! TW should actively seek out moddeds who are able to improve AI and pathfinding. They clearly need help.
That's not how game development works. Not to say TW shouldn't fix it; they should 100%. But modding a game is extremely different to developing.

Modders don't have timescales, meetings, development queues. They dont have to fix the issue going forward (if it breaks next patch). They dont have to think about performance issues or memory limits. They dont have to think about how people can change the code going forwards or if it works on every scene.

They also don't have shareholders / management breathing down their neck nor do they have working time limits.

Mods are band aids. Brilliant that people do it but TW need to pull their fingers out and fix it. You can't just 'copy code accross' and call it a day.
 
Modders don't have that much of a good time really.
Modders don't have timescales, meetings, development queues. They dont have to fix the issue going forward (if it breaks next patch). They dont have to think about performance issues or memory limits. They dont have to think about how people can change the code going forwards or if it works on every scene.
A group of modders is a team that has discussions and disagreements just like any group of people, including TW teams. They do have to fix their mod ASAP when TW does their break-every-mod patching. Performance issues are just the same as for TW and modders are acutely aware of poly counts and LODs and stuff - they don't want their mod to be unplayable for some.
The rest of your comment just doesn't make sense, as if you don't know what are you talking about.
They also don't have shareholders / management breathing down their neck nor do they have working time limits.
When mod updates slow down, players start with "update when" threads and put pressure. Sometimes modders commit to dates to make their updates more predictable for the players - that's time pressure right there. Unlike TW, modders do this in their free time and sometimes they don't have it for something that doesn't pay the bills, unlike TW employees who are paid to do this every day. Not only you are wrong, you are offensively wrong.
Compare that to TW's cavalier attitude with deadlines.
Mods are band aids. Brilliant that people do it but TW need to pull their fingers out and fix it. You can't just 'copy code accross' and call it a day.
Yes, you can. Above the engine level everything modders do is equivalent to what TW does. Workarounds are used only if there's an engine bug, the rest of it could be simply copied by TW if they ask nicely.
 

GMBarak

Recruit
My god, I had been away for months hoping that the sieges would finally you know NOT SUCK. Instead my people STILL don't go up ladders and just stand around at the bottom of them waiting to be shot by arrows. This is such a major part of the game and it is to Failworlds total shame that it is still the messy crap that it is. Now I love some of the other things that have been improved but around a year was it that this was supposed to be in EA? Yeah try 5 years before its halfway decent. So disgusted with myself that I was tricked into paying a full price for a game that isn't even half done and thats being generious.

Honestly the only decent thing about this game is how great the modders are. So many talented people trying to make the game better and not even being paid to do it. Really disgraceful that failworlds is leaving it to unpaid modders to make their game better.
Another issue is that it takes several minutes before they start chopping the second gate after the battering ram destroyed the first gate. They just stand there looking at the wall.
 
Another issue is that it takes several minutes before they start chopping the second gate after the battering ram destroyed the first gate. They just stand there looking at the wall.
I explained the issue in detail elsewhere. To sum it up, something broke with pathfinding, when first gate gets broken by the ram, 8 soldiers run towards the second gate. However on many maps (mostly level 2 and level 3 walls) those 8 designated gate cutters decide to go via ladders / siege towers instead of direct route, there is no logical explenation for this behaviour. We found out that if we keep designating more and more soldiers to gate cutting eventually some of them will actually run towards the gate instead of ladders, thats how our gate fix works, even with RBM you can see that like 20 guys are running towards the ladders until the gate is broken, then they mostly come back. In vanilla those 8 gate cutters sometimes go towards the ladders, then they go back toweards the gate than back towards the ladders. Sometimes they just go towards the gate. Sometimes when the ladder lovers gets killed on the ladder or on the way towards the ladder newly assigned gate cutter will actually run towrds the gate, and sometimes the gate cutters cut the gate from inside when they succesfully climb the ladders and fight their way through.

Now that I summed it up, perhaps they increased general priority for ladders in some attempt to fix them? They could use same approach as we did, at least in principle instead of tweaking something, not testing it on all castles (some castles got their ladders too close to gates I guess) and releasing it anyway without fixing anything.
 

Fate

Veteran
That's not how game development works. Not to say TW shouldn't fix it; they should 100%. But modding a game is extremely different to developing.

Modders don't have timescales, meetings, development queues. They dont have to fix the issue going forward (if it breaks next patch). They dont have to think about performance issues or memory limits. They dont have to think about how people can change the code going forwards or if it works on every scene.

They also don't have shareholders / management breathing down their neck nor do they have working time limits.

Mods are band aids. Brilliant that people do it but TW need to pull their fingers out and fix it. You can't just 'copy code accross' and call it a day.
You're joking right?
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
You're joking right?
No I'm really not...




I used to have a few more M&B mods as well - though I fear they have been lost in the depths of the forum. In addition I have made mods for Warcraft 3, Dominions, Star Craft, Men of War & Rome Total War. I was far from an expert but I certainly had a good crack at those titles and many others....

The point is modding does not equal game development. This is a myth that has been debunked many times on many game forums;






There is a few sources for you to read. I am no way saying TW shouldn't sort this issue - but as a man who works with developers I feel obliged to debunk this myth. Modders do fantastic work - but it is not the same thing as making a game (even if the skillset is often shared).

Let us not forget that some of the developers for Bannerlord ARE ex-mod makers... yet their work pattern has changed significantly - because they aren't doing the same job anymore.
 

Marko͘

Section Moderator
WBNWM&BWF&SVC
Very wise words here <--
Spot on MadVader. A bit of reflection from a Multiplayer modder perspective:

The self-imposed pressure can be insane because of the way MP playercounts work. People playing bring more people playing, and you're competing with other MP mods and vanilla in a very limited player pool. First mods to start dropping off population due to lack of updates die off beyond the point of no return. No one joins a server with 5/200 people on.

You have to keep constantly pushing updates, and the best MP mods with lots of player retention had a lot of work put into marketing, reaching people and announcing news(Including roadmaps, for Taleworlds readers).

Singleplayer mods are at a much lower risk of 'dying' due to a lack of updates but they lose clout and public interest unless well maintained, and I think the SP modders have it way worse with the 'when update' thread spam and pressure.

timescales, meetings, development queues
Having a developer meeting with basically hobbyist volunteers on how your niche Multiplayer mod balance should keep evolving is one of the most difficult things I've had to deal with. Even with teams where people have a similar vision for things, balance talk can get very exhausting and subjective.

They dont have to fix the issue going forward (if it breaks next patch).
You absolutely do if you don't want the project to die.

They dont have to think about performance issues or memory limits. They dont have to think about how people can change the code going forwards or if it works on every scene.
Taking care of in-game performance and code maintainability are the qualities of good and excellent mods that survived and became classics.
 

AxiosXiphos

Sergeant Knight
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
Spot on MadVader. A bit of reflection from a Multiplayer modder perspective:

The self-imposed pressure can be insane because of the way MP playercounts work. People playing bring more people playing, and you're competing with other MP mods and vanilla in a very limited player pool. First mods to start dropping off population due to lack of updates die off beyond the point of no return. No one joins a server with 5/200 people on.

You have to keep constantly pushing updates, and the best MP mods with lots of player retention had a lot of work put into marketing, reaching people and announcing news(Including roadmaps, for Taleworlds readers).

Singleplayer mods are at a much lower risk of 'dying' due to a lack of updates but they lose clout and public interest unless well maintained, and I think the SP modders have it way worse with the 'when update' thread spam and pressure.


Having a developer meeting with basically hobbyist volunteers on how your niche Multiplayer mod balance should keep evolving is one of the most difficult things I've had to deal with. Even with teams where people have a similar vision for things, balance talk can get very exhausting and subjective.


You absolutely do if you don't want the project to die.


Taking care of in-game performance and code maintainability are the qualities of good and excellent mods that survived and became classics.
There are many parallels and the work of a mod is often thankless and unpaid. Not disputing that.

But modding does not equal game development. And there is 100 legal issues why TW can't just "copy code" from the mods. As simple and clear as it sounds - that's not how life works.

Taleworlds need to sort it themselves and it has taken them way too long to sort out such an important feature of the game. It really should be priority 1 for the singleplayer dev's right now.
 
There are many parallels and the work of a mod is often thankless and unpaid. Not disputing that.

But modding does not equal game development.
This is a straw man - no one claims this but you. Modding is equivalent to a substantial part of game development, namely everything above engine level or whatever area is open for modding.
And there is 100 legal issues why TW can't just "copy code" from the mods. As simple and clear as it sounds - that's not how life works.
The legal issues are easy. TW negotiates a payment with a modding team or an individual and that's it. The problem is that they are not that interested in improving their game and hate to work with external devs.
 

Gandamula

Sergeant
This is a straw man - no one claims this but you. Modding is equivalent to a substantial part of game development, namely everything above engine level or whatever area is open for modding.

The legal issues are easy. TW negotiates a payment with a modding team or an individual and that's it. The problem is that they are not that interested in improving their game and hate to work with external devs.
They had to do this with several teams because each team deals with specific parts of the game. I think Mods like Improve Garrison and Party AI Overhaul commands could be part of the game, it looks lore friendly , but most mods are small tweeks or, by the opposite, total transformations.
 
Or they could get "inspired" to the point of having exact same application of the feature including same bugs and never mention the modders caugh * level scaling in Witcher 3 * caugh. :grin:
 
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