Siege Weapons?

[Tentacle]

I think it would be great idea to have siege weapons implemented. These should be able to be bought from Engineers in major towns and cities. They would require two troops (no peasants-hired blades, they have to be of a faction) to move them about the place, can be destroyed with difficulty and give a -2.0 penalty to speed. These siege weapons could include trebuchets, catapults, siege towers and ballistae. These would fire with some accuracy but would take a while to reload.

Each siege weapon would have it's own type of ammunition. A trebuchet would have cannonballs, which have various bonuses including fire (a fireball! Wow!). Ballistae and siege towers would use huge arrows which splinter on impact. These could also have fire damage and "wieghted arrow heads" which increase damage. Catapults and the like will use huge boulders which can be found very easily on battlefields. Each of these weapons will have to be manned by 2 people in battle, and can be manned on your own with another troop if the previous people manning it were killed. If a siege weapon is left unmanned, it has the possibility of being destroyed by enemies. This leaves wood (which could be used as a crafting material) which can be collected at the end of the battle.

Stuff to do with siege weapons:
- New skill: Siege tactics - Increases the damage and reload rate of siege weapons for your party.
- New items: Boulders, cannonballs, giant arrows.
- New bonuses (for ammo only): Weighted (arrows), burning (everything exept boulders), damaged (any), broken (arrows), chipped (cannonballs), irregular (boulders), huge (boulders).
- New troops: Trebuchet, ballista, catapult, siege tower.
- New NPC: Engineer
- New commodities: Wood, stone (can be sold to engineers to produce ammo along with Iron)

Feedback would be nice, peeps!

 

[Poil]

Cannonballs? Those were made out of metal, and shot out of cannons using gunpowder (hence the name). How in the world do you set fire to metal anyway?

A ballista is more of a giant crossbow than a giant bow really.

Personly, just having to bring up the ladders to the wall would be enough for me.

 

[Merentha]

Actually, it seems fine to me as it is. Why use seige weapons? The current ladder system is fine too, as there is no reason to have to actually pull up a ladder. Unnecessary complications. While it would be nice for armagan to implement seige ladders (and towers), I feel that there are many things far more deserving of attention.

 

[(:) Dvd (:)]

Cannonballs? Those were made out of metal, and shot out of cannons using gunpowder (hence the name). How in the world do you set fire to metal anyway?

A ballista is more of a giant crossbow than a giant bow really.

Personly, just having to bring up the ladders to the wall would be enough for me.

Actually, that is not entirely true. The very first cannon balls were made of smoothed & rounded stone balls. And you don't set fire to them. You place explosive inside of a hollowed cannonball and attach a special fuse that explodes roughly 20 seconds after firing out of the barrel.

Now, on to the siege-weapons:

I see 4 possible siege weapons only:

Ballista (Giant Crossbow, Accurate & Strong, 4 to pull, 2 to fire)
Catapult w/ Stone-Shot (Mortar, Spreads Stone over Large Area, 4 to pull, 3 to fire)
Ladder (Used to Climb Up Wall, 2 to move, 1 to set)
Battering Ram (Used to Break Down Gate, 8 to move, 8 to ram)

Now on to the specifics. Siege Weapons are manufactured by paying Craftsmen in cities to build the parts, then giving the parts to a Engineer and paying him.

The completed Siege Weapon appears in your inventory. You must then get ammo. Ammo is found as loot and bought from Engineers. The ammo is:

Stone-Shot (20 Shots, No-Respawn)
Ballista Bolt (40 Bolts, No-Respawn)

Now you must equip the Siege Weapon with the ammo by dragging the ammo from your inventory onto the siege weapon. A number shows the ammo in the siege weapon, there is a max of 40 for the Catapult and 80 for the Ballista.

Finally you must attach it to soldiers and your party. This is done by "tagging". Tagging signifies a soldier as a Siege Troop. For this scenario we also have 2 ladders and a battering ram. We have 60 troops.

Right click the Ballista w/ Bolts and select "Assemble for Army". A menu will pop up showing individual soldiers name. We selected 4 knights to pull it and 2 Guards to fire it. The ballista will fire at individual soldiers.

Then we repeat the proccess for the Catapult. The catapult will stay away from the action, at the back of the map, away from the archers, and fire towards the wall.

Finally we get to the Ladder. We select two Guards to move it and re-select a guard to set it. He will stay up to the wall, holding the ladder, making sure it is not pushed down. The Ladder will automatically be move towards a possible ladder location.

We then select 8 soldiers for the Battering Ram, they will also ram with it. The Ram will automatically begin ramming the gate.

Each time you select a soldier it disappears from the list, so you must make sure to have enough soldiers for your siege engines.

-Dvd

 

[Raybur Ravenloc]

So if I assign borcha to the catapult, and Marnid to the ballista, when I go to climb the ladder, will I be hit in the back of the head by a bolt or a stone first?

 

[Flaming Eyes]

So if I assign borcha to the catapult, and Marnid to the ballista, when I go to climb the ladder, will I be hit in the back of the head by a bolt or a stone first?

Ha ha ha ha ha.
Yes. But the thing is who will hit first...
________

I agree with siege weapons. And I must confess that until version 0.730, I thought that sieges where ballistas...

By the way, I would like to change the thing that there is a ladder to the casttle already, I think we should carry the ladder and try to post it in the wall, avoiding the arrows, the bolts... and boiling oil

 

[Merentha]

Again, WHY? To punch a hole in the walls? That would take ages (hint: there is a reason the hundred years war was a hundred years). The range would be ineffective on a normal field, except possibly a ballista, and then it is merely a super xbow.

To clear the walls? Well, that would be irritating. Battle starts, catapult fires, hits the walls, they all die. Woooooo...yay... These are small castles, no need for seige weapons, which, by the way, would significantly slow your army.

 

[AgentSword]

Again, WHY? To punch a hole in the walls? That would take ages (hint: there is a reason the hundred years war was a hundred years). The range would be ineffective on a normal field, except possibly a ballista, and then it is merely a super xbow.

To clear the walls? Well, that would be irritating. Battle starts, catapult fires, hits the walls, they all die. Woooooo...yay... These are small castles, no need for seige weapons, which, by the way, would significantly slow your army.

Me = in agreement with this guy. No need for siege weapons...we already have a pistol, how much farther into the future do we need to go?

 

[Raybur Ravenloc]

i agree that the sieges are excellent as-is, but i think it would be much better if there weren't permanent ramps to the battlements, ladder you have to build and carry up to the walls and/or siege towers you have to wheel up would be much better.. but probably very difficult to implement into M&B's engine
perhaps make towers act something like horses.. dunno..

catapults and ballistae aren't really necessary (although very cool), but could be fun to level a wall, especially if we make larger castles in mods, such as sieging capital cities.. of course its a low priority and likely very very difficult to implement

 

[bravesirknight]

Cool items, but they would need a game place designed for their use. The castle capture as it is wouldn't need them at all really... there's only one position enemies are at and it has a ramp straight to it.

 

[Big J Money]

The range would be ineffective on a normal field, except possibly a ballista, and then it is merely a super xbow.

Even the ballistae don't really belong in this scenario. Ballistae were ancient and medieval artillery used on the field of battle. I don't think there are any accounts of them being used in an assault on a fortress. I don't think it would really be appropriate to M&B for any kind of siege equipment to be used. These aren't armies, they're medieval war-bands.

=$= Big J Money =$=

 

[Berpol]

The range would be ineffective on a normal field, except possibly a ballista, and then it is merely a super xbow.

The ballistae of the greek were giant crossbows, those used since roman times used torsion power, derived from two thick skeins of twisted cords acting on two separate arms. They are also able to fire stones and bolts.

Even the ballistae don't really belong in this scenario. Ballistae were ancient and medieval artillery used on the field of battle. I don't think there are any accounts of them being used in an assault on a fortress.

But they might be used as defensive artillery from a castle. They can be build smaller and are more maneuverable so you could use them against approaching siege equipment. I do not know if that ever happened in reality but they used it in the film "Kingdom of Heaven".

I don't think it would really be appropriate to M&B for any kind of siege equipment to be used. These aren't armies, they're medieval war-bands.

The problem with siege warfare is time. In a game you don't want to sit outside a castle for months waiting for them to give up, reinforcements from one or both sides to arrive or until the wall is breached. In M&B it might be possible to divide the siege in several stages:
1. Surrounding the target
The player has to bring troops to one or more places to surround the target with troops.
2. Blocking the provision of supplies
The player has to stop supply trains and relief forces for a certain amount of time.
3. Sapping
I doubt it would be fun for players to burrow under fortifications
4. Artillery bombardment
This is more like an archery contest. Both sides try first to destroy the enemy artillery. Those laying siege usually are able to bring in or build new equipment (a trebuchet isn't that complex).
5. Storming the castle
Either the wall is breached using artillery or sapping or the gates are breached or the walls are stormed with ladders, ramps and/or siege towers. In version 0.730 only the very last stage of the siege is implemented, a ramp was placed against the wall and the troops move in.

 

[Tentacle]

I thought siege weapons is a good idea. The point of the Ballista bolts would be that they would splinter on impact and hit anyone/thing around it. The cannonball WOULD be around, because many of the various types of armour are metal, such as black/knight's armour. Another interesting idea would be pouring boiling oil from the castle walls. I've only visited one castle so far, so I don't know if it'll work on both.

Why are you against siege weapons? They will enhance the game greatly in my eyes. It will give sieges the feel of a war! Although I understand what you are coming at, I think it will be a good addition.

@Big J Money, just because they are medieval war bands does not mean that they do not use technology such as the trebuchet. The time doesn't change anything. If you assault a castle packed full of soldiers, a siege weapon could either be the death of you OR your key to success.

 

[(:) Dvd (:)]

First off, sieges have existed since the first fortresses.

Second, Ballista have & been used against fortresses. The Roman Army, the best army in the ancient world, used them to their advantage in picking off individual soldiers with bolts and firing pots of boiling oil over the walls.

-Dvd

 

[Deus Ex]

I've been looking into creating a Pavise shield or more likely a mantlet that could be used in sieges. I think it is doable - but they would need to be 'pre-set' on the battle field, there is no way to carry them and then position them.

I think it would help the attackers survive the barrage of arrows from the defenders...

Just ideas that have been rolling around in my head.

DE

 

[Poil]

(a trebuchet isn't that complex).

I've got an unfinished heap of wood, screws and glue lying around that says otherwise.

 

[Merentha]

A mantlet has merit, artillery does not. Storming the castle is very different from seiges, and in the direct storming, you would not want artillery pounding the walls. One hit on a ladder, and that is a lot of dead men or a lost ladder.

The ONLY way seiges (and artillery) in the traditional sense would make sense is if the player besieged the castle (on the travel map), waited for...hmm...2 gamemonths, and then had them surrender. Maybe if the player waited 3 weeks, they could storm the castle with a wall missing or something. Seem useful to you?

 

[(:) Dvd (:)]

A mantlet has merit, artillery does not. Storming the castle is very different from seiges, and in the direct storming, you would not want artillery pounding the walls. One hit on a ladder, and that is a lot of dead men or a lost ladder.

The ONLY way seiges (and artillery) in the traditional sense would make sense is if the player besieged the castle (on the travel map), waited for...hmm...2 gamemonths, and then had them surrender. Maybe if the player waited 3 weeks, they could storm the castle with a wall missing or something. Seem useful to you?

I wasn't speaking about that type of siege.

I was speaking about over-whelming the Castle Defenders (with Catapults & Ballista) and then taking them by storm (Knights, Infantry, & Archers) through broken gates (from a Battering Ram) and attached ladders (Siege Ladders).

-Dvd

 

[crustyrustyaphid]

The programming is hilariously flawed with sieges. I'm sure if we gave the AI a big pole on wheels to roll around they would do fine.

 

[(:) Dvd (:)]

The programming is hilariously flawed with sieges. I'm sure if we gave the AI a big pole on wheels to roll around they would do fine.

Ever heard of an "AI Pathway"?

-Dvd