siege ai

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Storm0711

Recruit
Old Guard
I have little doubt that this topic has been brought up numerous times but I need to vent.

I do love this game. It in many ways is for sure an upgrade. Siege ai though hasn't gotten ANY better since warband and potentially even worse and it is killing my enjoyment of this game. I have 2 siege towers, a ram, and 1400 men but after save scumming 4 times we still couldn't take a city of 400. It's infuriating watching as my allied army sets up 2 towers just for 10 guys to climb alone and get slaughtered while everyone else stands still getting hit by arrows without even attempting to climb or protect themselves. Even after we finally breached the main gate only a handful of men would charge in waves against 100 enemies on the other side. We could have easily taken the walls without a doubt in my mind. I'm baffled and pissed I lose a 1400 man army because they can't figure out a ladder. Siege ai is among the most important things and if it doesn't even work properly it really messes up the experience.
 
Trust me, this has been an issue from day one, we all ***** about it and they ignore it. I'm glad they're adding stuff to the game, but the Siege AI, well the AI in general are quite dumb. I rather have them fix that and make them better than adding new features. Like I said, I'm all for additions to the game, but this issue has been a thing for awhile and no word besides (We know about this issue and we're working on it) as its been a year already. To me, solve that then i can wait on the rest as the Siege really makes or breaks it for me. Still have 200+ hours (Basically since i turned on my new pc lol) so I like it. Just wish they communicated more, or just better in general.
 
There's no solution except using Realistic Battle Mod (which makes ladders work much better) and never building siege towers. No way to stop towers being used if you're in an AI-led army though.
 
Julio-Claudian said:
There's no solution except using Realistic Battle Mod (which makes ladders work much better) and never building siege towers. No way to stop towers being used if you're in an AI-led army though.
Click to expand...
I am using RBM which I had hoped would help but it doesn't seem much better in sieges unfortunately. I was really hoping over a year's time it would at least be workable or improved, but surprisingly it is not. I'm not asking for genius level AI but at least make them capable of using the basic methods necessary to have a siege. If it at least worked on a basic level I honestly wouldn't complain, I could at least work with that. It is just surprising to me that such a major issue which prevents proper core gameplay isn't a bigger priority.
 
The biggest issue that I have so far encountered with Siege Ai from an attackers standpoint is the misuse of siege weapons like catapults and ballistas that actively engage in friendly fire against allied siege towers. The problem derives from the targeting mechanics the ai use when trying to locate a target to shoot at with said siege weapons, they lock on to enemy Ai units rather than focusing on specific weakpoints in castle walls or structures like the front gate. As a result of this targeting system, they oftentimes will shoot at units who are on the wall defending against the oncoming siege towers, which puts those siege towers into the line of fire. Here are several pictures that demonstrate this happening in nearly every siege map that I have tested it on, resulting in my friendly siege troops outright demolishing their own siege towers.

Examples:
AinBaliqCastleFail.png

BaltakhandFail.png

ArgoronFail.png

MapSeononFail.png
 
I just had two odd instances in my sieges yesterday. One where the ram broke so they all AVOIDED the siege tower to climb the two ladders. And another instance on the same map where neither of them broke but they still AVOIDED the siege tower entirely and went for the broken gate. Very odd. It was on whatever map they use for Varcheg walls lvl 3.
 
Yes, the Siege AI is the most glaring failure of this game in my opinion.
Little funny story about it.
Have been playing the last beta version (I mean, beta *beta* version) and I was having a really successful campaign, 30 years old start, vassal of the northern empire. 74 tier 4-5 units after... 35 days, give or take a couple.
I had just recently pledged to the northern empire and joined an ongoing siege, the northern empire was sieging Baltakhand. I joined the fray and the experience I had was ridiculous. They had 210 defenders, mostly militia, while we had 1200+ soldiers with a huge number of menavlion and bucellarii. Our own catapult managed to somehow destroy both of our siege towers... killing at least 40 men in the process. Then the ram was pulverized by a defenders' catapult. Ok, I think, the men will probably use ladders... but wait! They raise the ladders, step on them... then get stuck and not even while taking casualties will they advance further! Thankfully a group of soldiers started bashing the main gate with swords: after a while it went down, our soldiers took the other gate out in short order... and eventually the city was ours. 520 losses.
Ok, now... surprisingly the city is awarded to me of all people! I stock up on recruits, forced villages to give me more men, eventually I could field 300 decent soldiers against an onslaught of 1500 attackers who didn't make me wait longer than three days to come and siege me. With no help in sight I decided to fight. Historically, 300 good men would be too much for 1500 attackers (most of which are either peasants or cavalrymen.)
Anyways, skip to the second siege. Already, the interface won't allow me to separate groups in a decent, intuitive or even working manner so I can tell X infantry to guard the right side while I tell Y infantry to guard the left, or the gate. The archers? I manually place them in two separate groups on the walls. Looks good I thought, and then the siege started. We had 2 catapults and 2 ballistas. I managed to destroy the battering ram moments before it took down the gate by literally throwing rocks at it. Good, I think, now I can tell the other soldiers to guard the f***ing walls instead.
Oh no. The soldiers refuse to move. Most of my infantry decides to run aimlessly (even with the charge orders) from the left to the right stairs without actually engaging the enemy. Those who reach the walls stare at the enemy which they could easily surround and keep from getting on the walls WHILE BACKPEDALLING LIKE MICHAEL JACKSON.
But the archers, the archers must be doing great, right? Wrong. Those on the perfectly placed towers are facing... the wrong side. I teamkill one of them to see if he's used any arrows: he hasn't. Not a single arrow from the right and left tower for the ENTIRETY OF THE SIEGE. The other archers have been standing in full view of the enemy archers (without even trying to use the cover in place for them to take shelter) and are all either dead or staring at the void that is their mind while the enemy scales the walls. All this time, I've had 100 infantrymen told to either STAY ON THE WALL or CHARGE. What did they do instead? They avoided the enemy and ran from a stair to the other. Great.
So at this point the siege is lost - 300 vs 1500, ok, acceptable right?
Only that I killed 35 in that battle. My entire army of 300 something killed 49. All thanks to the absolutely retarded AI.
*Italian chef's kiss*
 
Aurex said:
Yes, the Siege AI is the most glaring failure of this game in my opinion.
Little funny story about it.
Have been playing the last beta version (I mean, beta *beta* version) and I was having a really successful campaign, 30 years old start, vassal of the northern empire. 74 tier 4-5 units after... 35 days, give or take a couple.
I had just recently pledged to the northern empire and joined an ongoing siege, the northern empire was sieging Baltakhand. I joined the fray and the experience I had was ridiculous. They had 210 defenders, mostly militia, while we had 1200+ soldiers with a huge number of menavlion and bucellarii. Our own catapult managed to somehow destroy both of our siege towers... killing at least 40 men in the process. Then the ram was pulverized by a defenders' catapult. Ok, I think, the men will probably use ladders... but wait! They raise the ladders, step on them... then get stuck and not even while taking casualties will they advance further! Thankfully a group of soldiers started bashing the main gate with swords: after a while it went down, our soldiers took the other gate out in short order... and eventually the city was ours. 520 losses.
Ok, now... surprisingly the city is awarded to me of all people! I stock up on recruits, forced villages to give me more men, eventually I could field 300 decent soldiers against an onslaught of 1500 attackers who didn't make me wait longer than three days to come and siege me. With no help in sight I decided to fight. Historically, 300 good men would be too much for 1500 attackers (most of which are either peasants or cavalrymen.)
Anyways, skip to the second siege. Already, the interface won't allow me to separate groups in a decent, intuitive or even working manner so I can tell X infantry to guard the right side while I tell Y infantry to guard the left, or the gate. The archers? I manually place them in two separate groups on the walls. Looks good I thought, and then the siege started. We had 2 catapults and 2 ballistas. I managed to destroy the battering ram moments before it took down the gate by literally throwing rocks at it. Good, I think, now I can tell the other soldiers to guard the f***ing walls instead.
Oh no. The soldiers refuse to move. Most of my infantry decides to run aimlessly (even with the charge orders) from the left to the right stairs without actually engaging the enemy. Those who reach the walls stare at the enemy which they could easily surround and keep from getting on the walls WHILE BACKPEDALLING LIKE MICHAEL JACKSON.
But the archers, the archers must be doing great, right? Wrong. Those on the perfectly placed towers are facing... the wrong side. I teamkill one of them to see if he's used any arrows: he hasn't. Not a single arrow from the right and left tower for the ENTIRETY OF THE SIEGE. The other archers have been standing in full view of the enemy archers (without even trying to use the cover in place for them to take shelter) and are all either dead or staring at the void that is their mind while the enemy scales the walls. All this time, I've had 100 infantrymen told to either STAY ON THE WALL or CHARGE. What did they do instead? They avoided the enemy and ran from a stair to the other. Great.
So at this point the siege is lost - 300 vs 1500, ok, acceptable right?
Only that I killed 35 in that battle. My entire army of 300 something killed 49. All thanks to the absolutely retarded AI.
*Italian chef's kiss*
Click to expand...
If I had a nickel for every time the AI backpedaled while struggling to target and kill enemies on the wall, or had enemy AI get up 1 ladder while all of the allied troops focus on the other ladder just for the enemy to start hitting them in the back with no attempt to defend themselves, I would be hella rich. Watching my troops not block or find cover from easily avoidable arrows kills me both figuratively and literally. Trying to defend from an overwhelming enemy force is made annoyingly more difficult when half of my defenders get taken out by arrows because they refuse to block or move into cover. I literally watched as my top tier troops were just face tanking shots, I tried real hard blocking for them in vain, it was pretty dumb but a little funny.
 
Will Greaves said:
How do you not get shot off your horse during that part?
Click to expand...
stay near the edge of the map, they probably won't hit you you, if they do it's not much damage at extreme range....... there's tiny change of eating ballista bolt though.... for riding through the gate you just have to weave back and forth and hope but most layouts it's kinda hard for them hit you if you're moving fast to the gate.
 
Storm0711 said:
I am using RBM which I had hoped would help but it doesn't seem much better in sieges unfortunately. I was really hoping over a year's time it would at least be workable or improved, but surprisingly it is not. I'm not asking for genius level AI but at least make them capable of using the basic methods necessary to have a siege. If it at least worked on a basic level I honestly wouldn't complain, I could at least work with that. It is just surprising to me that such a major issue which prevents proper core gameplay isn't a bigger priority.
Click to expand...

Do these problems happen when you DONT use siege towers? Siege towers are simply broken beyond saving. Never ever use siege towers both in vanilla and RBM. Also, always choose NOT to spawn your own siege engines in the actual battle with the exception of ballistas when you are the attacker, because they will cause more teamkills than normal kills. Obviously you can use yours siege engines during the strategic map phase of battle to destroy enemy engines and walls.

Also never serve other lord in his army its good way to get captured and to lose your army. Just get enough influance by getting proper buildings, laws, traits and by winning battles, sharing food with starving soldiers of other lords that are in your armies and by having your own clan parties in your army (this actually gives you daily influence and it costs nothing to add them to your army).

Edit: also some maps are buggy and might not function correctly in both vanilla and RBM because their main doors are unlocked or because defender AI constantly opens them which confuses the **** out of attacker AI.
 
Philozoraptor said:
Do these problems happen when you DONT use siege towers? Siege towers are simply broken beyond saving. Never ever use siege towers both in vanilla and RBM. Also, always choose NOT to spawn your own siege engines in the actual battle with the exception of ballistas when you are the attacker, because they will cause more teamkills than normal kills. Obviously you can use yours siege engines during the strategic map phase of battle to destroy enemy engines and walls.

Also never serve other lord in his army its good way to get captured and to lose your army. Just get enough influance by getting proper buildings, laws, traits and by winning battles, sharing food with starving soldiers of other lords that are in your armies and by having your own clan parties in your army (this actually gives you daily influence and it costs nothing to add them to your army).

Edit: also some maps are buggy and might not function correctly in both vanilla and RBM because their main doors are unlocked or because defender AI constantly opens them which confuses the **** out of attacker AI.
Click to expand...
I can't exactly recall if the enemy AI used towers along with ladders often when I started using RBM but I don't think they did in most of the sieges because of the usually overwhelming advantage in numbers they often had over me when I defended. I'm trying to think back but I do believe when they would use all ladders they would still crowd around and use 1 ladder per wall at a time to get up even with RBM. Sometimes they would alternate ladders with maybe a few going up the other one at best. When the few enemies would get up the secondary ladder most of the defenders moved to block off the new crowded ladder the enemy crowded on, ignoring the other one nearly completely, resulting in the few enemies killing my men from the back, which I had to save them from.

I'm starting to realize I can't join armies anymore...which bothers me a lot. I would never use a tower tbh but I can't stop the AI and when I was in the army they would often build at least 1 tower (I can't recall the times when we didn't have towers because it was rarely), so I guess I gotta avoid certain sieges. I really liked the one siege tower that is just a ramp because I never had issues with that at least. It's unfortunate I only have been able to use it like 3 times, I'm also not sure which map uses it though, partially wish they all did.
 
Storm0711 said:
I can't exactly recall if the enemy AI used towers along with ladders often when I started using RBM but I don't think they did in most of the sieges because of the usually overwhelming advantage in numbers they often had over me when I defended. I'm trying to think back but I do believe when they would use all ladders they would still crowd around and use 1 ladder per wall at a time to get up even with RBM. Sometimes they would alternate ladders with maybe a few going up the other one at best. When the few enemies would get up the secondary ladder most of the defenders moved to block off the new crowded ladder the enemy crowded on, ignoring the other one nearly completely, resulting in the few enemies killing my men from the back, which I had to save them from.

I'm starting to realize I can't join armies anymore...which bothers me a lot. I would never use a tower tbh but I can't stop the AI and when I was in the army they would often build at least 1 tower (I can't recall the times when we didn't have towers because it was rarely), so I guess I gotta avoid certain sieges. I really liked the one siege tower that is just a ramp because I never had issues with that at least. It's unfortunate I only have been able to use it like 3 times, I'm also not sure which map uses it though, partially wish they all did.
Click to expand...
It depends on castle / town wall levels - it is used only vs lvl 1 walls.
 
@TaleWorlds have to make AI work, i dont want nothing fancy or strategic from AI just use ladders please!!!!!
I have time to write this because i am dead and waiting for hour at siege where both AI just standing and doing nothing. Bring back old AI.
 
Storm0711 said:
I have 2 siege towers, a ram, and 1400 men but after save scumming 4 times we still couldn't take a city of 400.
Click to expand...
emmm, if you are not leading the army you probably should auto-calc the siege because AI refuses to mount siege towers, this bug has been reported ~6 months ago and still not resolved.
It is funny though, TW wanna do keep battles, but main siege is still broken.
Anyway, if you are leading the army, take control over your troops and order them to charge, this will fix this bug. You need to switch the "delegate command" order off
@Stre0 yeah, i decided to play some BL, and on my first siege i see this AI bug... yeah. Not a good impression of the "stable" version of the game.
 
I am hoping these a.i fixes have been getting tweaked for months all over the place and we become surprised about the amount of changes. Or a mod fixes it?
 
Senko said:
It's on the list
forums.taleworlds.com

Statement regarding Plans for Singleplayer and Engine III

Warriors of Calradia, It is time to share another update on some of our current singleplayer and engine related priorities with you. Just like before, stability and performance will continue to be a top priority for us. Beyond that, you will find some of our other goals listed below. Please...
forums.taleworlds.com forums.taleworlds.com

You guys are just impatient. :xf-wink:
Click to expand...
  • "Siege AI & Formation Improvements" LOOOOL Improve what!? its ****ing broken beyond repair! it should say insted:
  • "Proper Siege AI & Formation Implementation" then it wouldent be BS haha
 
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