should there be a cultural variety of armor and weapons in the game?

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daxiapi777 说:
I don' t know where your knowledge comes from man. But in China, Jian simply means sword and Dao is very similar to sabre. We have 18 general types of weapons and most of them are not very different from their western counterparts.

18 types of weapons: Dao, Qiang, Jian, Ji, Fu, Yue, Go, Cha, Tang, Gun, Shuo, Bang, Bian, Jian, Chui, Zhua, Guaizi, Liuxing.
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"most of them are not very different from their western counterparts"
Not too different.
 
Ryotarou 说:
One of the siege weapons uses gunpowder because it explodes, and gunpowder was discovered in China in the HAN dynasty, but it was better used in the Song dynasty, when at that time it was introduced to the rest of the world, before gunpowder was just black powder.
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Honestly this is completely irrelevant. Just because the low-fantasy world of bannerlord takes some loose inspiration from our world doesn't mean there has to be a Chinese people at all or that they had anything to do with gunpowder in this fantasy world.

Also that the Chinese 'discovered' gunpowder is abjectly irrelevant. They discovered it by complete mere happen stance while looking for an occult elixir for eternal life for their emperor and happend to be right next to the most natural and easily accessible sources of saltpeter pretty much anywhere in the world. Not only in the form of direct mineral deposits but also in the form of bat guano caves where it could even crystallize.

IE basically any people who lived where the Chinese did would have found it by pure luck and the Chinese themselves basically did nothing to ever make it useful as a weapon. Also the early form of un-corned powder the chinese used wasn't even really fit for weaponry as it would burn and explode unevenly and inconsistently and result in regular backfiring in early guns. Guns themselves really being the technologic innovation that leveraged gunpowder and having almost zero history of development under the chinese.
 
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Ryotarou 说:
TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE TYPE of sword
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Jian is literally a sword in Chinese, in English language, it's called a sword, not a jian. It's not a special type of sword like a katana that has curved blade or a rapier that have really thin blade, which require specific names. A Jian is exactly what a normal sword would look like, just with fancy handguard.
 
GLR476 说:
Honestly this is completely irrelevant. Just because the low-fantasy world of bannerlord takes some loose inspiration from our world doesn't mean there has to be a Chinese people at all or that they had anything to do with gunpowder in this fantasy world.

Also that the Chinese 'discovered' gunpowder is abjectly irrelevant. They discovered it by complete mere happen stance while looking for an occult elixir for eternal life for their emperor and happend to be right next to the most natural and easily accessible sources of saltpeter pretty much anywhere in the world. Not only in the form of direct mineral deposits but also in the form of bat guano caves where it could even crystallize.

IE basically any people who lived where the Chinese did would have found it by pure luck and the Chinese themselves basically did nothing to ever make it useful as a weapon. Also the early form of un-corned powder the chinese used wasn't even really fit for weaponry as it would burn and explode unevenly and inconsistently and result in regular backfiring of early guns. Guns themselves really being the technologic innovation that leveraged gunpowder and having almost zero history of development under the chinese.
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Gunpowder was discovered in China sometime during the first millennium AD. The very earliest possible reference to gunpowder appeared in 142 AD during the Eastern Han dynasty when the alchemist Wei Boyang wrote about a substance with the properties of gunpowder. He described a mixture of three powders that would "fly and dance" violently in his Cantong qi, otherwise known as the Book of the Kinship of Three, a Taoist text on the subject of alchemy. Although it is impossible to know if he was actually referring to gunpowder, no other explosive known to scientists is composed of three powders.

While it was almost certainly not their intention to create a weapon of war, Taoist alchemists continued to play a major role in gunpowder development due to their experiments with sulfur and saltpeter involved in searching for eternal life and ways to transmute one material into another. Historian Peter Lorge notes that despite the early association of gunpowder with Taoism, this may be a quirk of historiography and a result of the better preservation of texts associated with Taoism, rather than being a subject limited to only Taoists. The Taoist quest for the elixir of life attracted many powerful patrons, one of whom was Emperor Wu of Han. One of the resulting alchemical experiments involved heating 10% sulfur and 75% saltpeter to transform them.

The next reference to gunpowder occurred in the year 300 during the Jin dynasty (265–420). A Taoist philosopher by the name of Ge Hong wrote down the ingredients of gunpowder in his surviving works, collectively known as the Baopuzi ("The Master Who Embraces Simplicity"). The "Inner Chapters" on Taoism contains records of his experiments with heated saltpeter, pine resin, and charcoal among other carbon materials, resulting in explosion, which most historians acknowledge as an early form of gunpowder. In 492, Taoist alchemists noted that saltpeter, one of the most important ingredients in gunpowder, burns with a purple flame, allowing for practical efforts at purifying the substance.

The first confirmed reference to what can be considered gunpowder in China occurred more than three hundred years later during the Tang dynasty, first in a formula contained in the Taishang Shengzu Jindan Mijue (太上聖祖金丹秘訣) in 808, and then about 50 years later in a Taoist text known as the Zhenyuan miaodao yaolüe (真元妙道要略).The first formula was a combination of six parts sulfur to six parts saltpeter to one part birthwort herb. The Taoist text warned against an assortment of dangerous formulas, one of which corresponds with gunpowder: "Some have heated together sulfur, Realgar (arsenic disulfide), and saltpeter with honey; smoke [and flames] result, so that their hands and faces have been burnt, and even the whole house burned down."Alchemists called this discovery fire medicine ("huoyao" 火藥), and the term has continued to refer to gunpowder in China into the present day, a reminder of its heritage as a side result in the search for longevity increasing drugs.

The earliest surviving chemical formula of gunpowder dates to 1044 in the form of the military manual Wujing zongyao, also known in English as the Complete Essentials for the Military Classics, which contains a collection of factoids on Chinese weaponry. The Wujing Zongyao served as a repository of antiquated or fanciful weaponry, and this applied to gunpowder as well, suggesting that it had already been weaponized long before the invention of what would today be considered conventional firearms. These types of gunpowder weapons styles an assortment of odd names such as "flying incendiary club for subjugating demons", "caltrop fire ball", "ten-thousand fire flying sand magic bomb", "big bees nest", "burning heaven fierce fire unstoppable bomb", "fire bricks" which released "flying swallows", "flying rats", "fire birds", and "fire oxen". Eventually they gave way and coalesced into a smaller number of dominant weapon types, notably gunpowder arrows, bombs, and guns. This was most likely because some weapons were deemed too onerous or ineffective to deploy.
 
S.O.D Brigand! 说:
I like that, based on realism but more than. In any fictional setting you have to set rules, if you break those rules it brings the audience out of their immersion in the story. I think this is the real argument. People on your side of the debate believe this is Europe. So bringing in the Chinese would break your immersion. I don't see the same rules as you. In fact the opposite. I see a place where nothing is really where it should be. Maybe I can see a Scandinavia to the far North, but it's too far east and contains no cities. I can see an overly large Cyprus, with no cities on it. That's about it. Of course there is snow in the North and deserts in the south. As long as we assume that the continent of Caladria is past the equator that's just logical.

There is room on the map for at least 3 more factions. The map already extends far to the east of the Khazits. Who did the Mongol's territory border in the East? China.

Not that it even matters. The Celts aren't where they were in reality, because the place they were in reality does not even exist on the map. The Vlandians are in the West but no amount of looking will tell me that they are in France. So things not being where they should is not a logical argument. Since things are already not where they should be. Since it's a work of fiction.

Which is why I say put in any faction from any part of the world that would be fun. The rule that things are where they were historically does not exist in this game.
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The way I see it, the setting of this game is Medieval Europe. It's like a basket of nations or cultures based on historical geo-politics. Franks, Celts, Saracens, Byzantines, Vikings, Rus and later the Mongols and the Turks, they are all in the basket. It is negotiable who should be where at the map, because the game is fiction, it does not have to be 100% accurate. But it will be problematic if you want nations or cultures outside this basket, or if you want fantasy or Gatlin guns in the game. That is a whole other level of problem.
 
duchuy613 说:
Jian is literally a sword in Chinese, in English language, it's called a sword, not a jian. It's not a special type of sword like a katana that has curved blade or a rapier that have really thin blade, which require specific names. A Jian is exactly what a normal sword would look like, just with fancy handguard.
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en.wikipedia.org

Classification of swords - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org en.wikipedia.org

GLR476 说:
Honestly this is completely irrelevant. Just because the low-fantasy world of bannerlord takes some loose inspiration from our world doesn't mean there has to be a Chinese people at all or that they had anything to do with gunpowder in this fantasy world.

Also that the Chinese 'discovered' gunpowder is abjectly irrelevant. They discovered it by complete mere happen stance while looking for an occult elixir for eternal life for their emperor and happend to be right next to the most natural and easily accessible sources of saltpeter pretty much anywhere in the world. Not only in the form of direct mineral deposits but also in the form of bat guano caves where it could even crystallize.

IE basically any people who lived where the Chinese did would have found it by pure luck and the Chinese themselves basically did nothing to ever make it useful as a weapon. Also the early form of un-corned powder the chinese used wasn't even really fit for weaponry as it would burn and explode unevenly and inconsistently and result in regular backfiring. Guns themselves really being the technologic innovation that leveraged gunpowder and having almost zero history of development under the chinese.
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"IE basically any people who lived where the Chinese did would have found it by pure luck and the Chinese themselves basically did nothing to ever make it useful as a weapon."

Just get out of here
 
Ryotarou 说:
Gunpowder was discovered in China sometime during the first millennium AD. The very earliest possible reference to gunpowder appeared in 142 AD during the Eastern Han dynasty when the alchemist Wei Boyang wrote about a substance with the properties of gunpowder. He described a mixture of three powders that would "fly and dance" violently in his Cantong qi, otherwise known as the Book of the Kinship of Three, a Taoist text on the subject of alchemy. Although it is impossible to know if he was actually referring to gunpowder, no other explosive known to scientists is composed of three powders.

While it was almost certainly not their intention to create a weapon of war, Taoist alchemists continued to play a major role in gunpowder development due to their experiments with sulfur and saltpeter involved in searching for eternal life and ways to transmute one material into another. Historian Peter Lorge notes that despite the early association of gunpowder with Taoism, this may be a quirk of historiography and a result of the better preservation of texts associated with Taoism, rather than being a subject limited to only Taoists. The Taoist quest for the elixir of life attracted many powerful patrons, one of whom was Emperor Wu of Han. One of the resulting alchemical experiments involved heating 10% sulfur and 75% saltpeter to transform them.

The next reference to gunpowder occurred in the year 300 during the Jin dynasty (265–420). A Taoist philosopher by the name of Ge Hong wrote down the ingredients of gunpowder in his surviving works, collectively known as the Baopuzi ("The Master Who Embraces Simplicity"). The "Inner Chapters" on Taoism contains records of his experiments with heated saltpeter, pine resin, and charcoal among other carbon materials, resulting in explosion, which most historians acknowledge as an early form of gunpowder. In 492, Taoist alchemists noted that saltpeter, one of the most important ingredients in gunpowder, burns with a purple flame, allowing for practical efforts at purifying the substance.

The first confirmed reference to what can be considered gunpowder in China occurred more than three hundred years later during the Tang dynasty, first in a formula contained in the Taishang Shengzu Jindan Mijue (太上聖祖金丹秘訣) in 808, and then about 50 years later in a Taoist text known as the Zhenyuan miaodao yaolüe (真元妙道要略).The first formula was a combination of six parts sulfur to six parts saltpeter to one part birthwort herb. The Taoist text warned against an assortment of dangerous formulas, one of which corresponds with gunpowder: "Some have heated together sulfur, Realgar (arsenic disulfide), and saltpeter with honey; smoke [and flames] result, so that their hands and faces have been burnt, and even the whole house burned down."Alchemists called this discovery fire medicine ("huoyao" 火藥), and the term has continued to refer to gunpowder in China into the present day, a reminder of its heritage as a side result in the search for longevity increasing drugs.

The earliest surviving chemical formula of gunpowder dates to 1044 in the form of the military manual Wujing zongyao, also known in English as the Complete Essentials for the Military Classics, which contains a collection of factoids on Chinese weaponry. The Wujing Zongyao served as a repository of antiquated or fanciful weaponry, and this applied to gunpowder as well, suggesting that it had already been weaponized long before the invention of what would today be considered conventional firearms. These types of gunpowder weapons styles an assortment of odd names such as "flying incendiary club for subjugating demons", "caltrop fire ball", "ten-thousand fire flying sand magic bomb", "big bees nest", "burning heaven fierce fire unstoppable bomb", "fire bricks" which released "flying swallows", "flying rats", "fire birds", and "fire oxen". Eventually they gave way and coalesced into a smaller number of dominant weapon types, notably gunpowder arrows, bombs, and guns. This was most likely because some weapons were deemed too onerous or ineffective to deploy.
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Man, I don't know why you are so obsessed with gunpowder. It's not really in the game anyway. This game is based on early medieval Europe, almost two centuries before Warband which is set in high medieval time. The explosive stuff you saw during sieges is most likely just a firepot, which was there in Roman times. Don't assume every early thermal weapon was invented by the Chinese. And furthermore, that really has nothing to do with adding Chinese faction into the game.
 
Nice copy and paste.

Ryotarou 说:
Gunpowder was discovered in China sometime during the first millennium AD. The very earliest possible reference to gunpowder
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IE totally unconfirmed and biased and deceitful to try and say that is when it was discovered.

The first confirmed reference to what can be considered gunpowder in China occurred during the Tang dynasty
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So over 700 or 800 years later during the 9th century AD...

Again the fact the chinese stumbled upon gunpoweder couldn't be more irrelevant. They did absolutely nothing with it and the chinese gunpoweder does not equate to the later cornered powder that was used in early guns. Quite literally any people who lived where the ancient Chinese did with their capital in Xian, which was surrounded by natural saltpeter deposits, would have stumbled upon it. Saltpeter being the key ingredient that most of the rest of the world have zero access to and would later have to artificially synthesize themselves to produce their own gunpowder.
 
daxiapi777 说:
Man, I don't know why you are so obsessed with gunpowder. It's not really in the game anyway. This game is based on early medieval Europe, almost two centuries before Warband which is set in high medieval time. The explosive stuff you saw during sieges is most likely just a firepot, which was there in Roman times. Don't assume every early thermal weapon was invented by the Chinese. And furthermore, that really has nothing to do with adding Chinese faction into the game.
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Firepot explodes and releases black smoke?

GLR476 说:
Nice copy and paste.



IE totally unconfirmed and biased and deceitful to try and say that is when it was discovered.



So over 700 or 800 years later during the 9th century AD...

Again the fact the chinese stumbled upon gunpoweder couldn't be more irrelevant. They did absolutely nothing with it and the chinese gunpoweder does not equate to the later cornered powder that was used in early guns. Quite literally any people who lived where the ancient Chinese did with their capital in Xian, which was surrounded by natural saltpeter deposits, would have stumbled upon it. Saltpeter being the key ingredient that most of the rest of the world have zero access to and would later have to artificially synthesize themselves to produce their own gunpowder.
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Firearrows, explosives and naval bombs are some of the things they made
 
daxiapi777 说:
The way I see it, the setting of this game is Medieval Europe. It's like a basket of nations or cultures based on historical geo-politics. Franks, Celts, Saracens, Byzantines, Vikings, Rus and later the Mongols and the Turks, they are all in the basket. It is negotiable who should be where at the map, because the game is fiction, it does not have to be 100% accurate. But it will be problematic if you want nations or cultures outside this basket, or if you want fantasy or Gatlin guns in the game. That is a whole other level of problem.
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When choosing whether they wanted to set this game in the real world or in a fantasy setting they decided they wanted it in a fantasy setting. The only reason to do this is to allow themselves the freedom to break from historical reality.
As I said you need rules for any fantasy setting. A Gatling gun would be the equivalent to introducing magic. Back to my initial point, this game is about What if? What if China was not so far away? What if the Roman empire had expanded all the way to China? Or the Chinese to Rome. Alexander almost did and in fact there was a short war between Chinese and Greeks!
The Chinese existed in this time period, Gatling guns didn't. The two things cannot be equated because they do not break the same rules set for this fantasy world. Lets also not forget that this also has two Asian factions.
 
GLR476 说:
Well this one is a confirmed chinese. Harping about irrelevant archaic useless chinese powder and can't deal with the 100% fact the only reason the chinese stumbled upon it was because of where they lived. And notably can't deal with the fact the Chinese did NOTHING with the powder for centuries which speaks a lot more about their innovative capabilities that finding powder that smokes by pure luck and circumstance ever would.
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If you're going to continue being ignorant and stupid like that, could you do me a favor just leaving the post ?, You're just getting in the way...
 
Ryotarou 说:
Firepot explodes and releases black smoke?
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Explodes may be exaggerating, but certainly, they could have a similar effect because they have pitch and oil mixture in them. And I don't think you need to be reminded that early cannons fired solid cannonballs which do not explode when land on targets.
 
daxiapi777 说:
Explodes may be exaggerating, but certainly, they could have a similar effect because they have pitch and oil mixture in them. And I don't think you need to be reminded that early cannons fired solid cannonballs which do not explode when land on targets.
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the cannons were not firing using tension, but rather powder
 
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