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Should javelins get nerfed?

Should javelins get nerfed?


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Last week I did some simple tests via custom battles against the AI, sending 100 archers vs 100 infantry, with various factions. I did not intrervene, just wanted to see the AI in action. These battles were very onesided, as one can imagine, the infantry usually ran away before reaching the line of archers.

The one noteable exception was the Khuzaits however. They caused heavy casaulties with javis to the archers from 40-60 m, and in one occasion (against Sturgian archers), they even won the battle. Not tested javis vs regular infantry, but I am sure the results will be devastating. I believe a full javi army will be op in campaign as well.

There are a lot of consideration of course, like the AI not using shield wall etc, but I find it somewhat immersion breaking for me to have such high damage output from ranged weapon - considering the game's medieval settings. What I would like to see is melee oriented battles, where the ranged troops are strong, but mostly supporting units only.
Heres a tip on advancing into ranged units with melee troops:
Set them to Shieldwall formation, tell them to hold fire if they have throwing weapons.
Hit F1>F4 to tell them to advance, they will move in formation and keep their shields up.
Once the enemy is within 15-20m you can tell them to fire, they will deal devastating damage up close if they have throwing weapons
When you get to the 10m range tell everybody to charge
 

Old-Bull

Squire
No. Javelins shouldn't get nerfed. They're fine as is, even weaker than Warband when they consistently shattered spears.

If anything needs nerfed it's the bow.
 

pww217

Recruit
No I generally like how they're implemented. They do the damage of 2-3 arrows or xbow bolts, but their range is less than half of those and their accuracy and speed is awful.You're meant to lug them at an enemy grouping and hope to nail someone.

Basically they're high risk, right reward skirmish/close range weapons and I think they fit that role fine.Your guys have time to get off 3-4 of them, then fight with melee.
 
No. Javelins shouldn't get nerfed. They're fine as is, even weaker than Warband when they consistently shattered spears.
imo the damage is fine, just the accuracy on throwing. Jav units are sniping soldiers for like 60m away sometimes with a headshot, me being one of those headshot units sometimes xD
 

Orkmann

Recruit
Heres a tip on advancing into ranged units with melee troops:
Set them to Shieldwall formation, tell them to hold fire if they have throwing weapons.
Hit F1>F4 to tell them to advance, they will move in formation and keep their shields up.
Once the enemy is within 15-20m you can tell them to fire, they will deal devastating damage up close if they have throwing weapons
When you get to the 10m range tell everybody to charge
Thanks for the tip, but it seems I was not clear enough 🙂 the problem is not that the player cant deal with javelins, but it is with the AI. Now, bows are much more unbalanced than javis for sure, but still for me this is the issue:ranged weapons are too strong, so unless you play purposely sub-optimal tactics, all battles in the campaign end up as a shooting fest, where you suffer on avarage 1 casualty for 100 killed enemy. Like if this wont be the middle ages(ish), but the 19th century, british empire vs the zulus 😀
 
all battles in the campaign end up as a shooting fest, where you suffer on avarage 1 casualty for 100 killed enemy.
true, ranged units are already op and even moreso when the ai does nothing to counter it. When lords have better units in their parties (which is being worked on rn) i'm hoping they will start using tactics like the shieldwall more often when their archers are vastly outnumbered. makes no sense for their 15-20 archers to be on the front line rn as they advance when the player has 80 archers.
 
I'm fine w Javelins thus far. I recall getting one shot by the huge Javelins in Viking Conquest during the Sea Raider bandit camps on the beach and learned quickly to keep my shield up.

I do the same in Bannerlord. Javelins must be respected and you must look for and recognize enemies using them. On the other side of the coin they're devastating vs an enemy charge. Order your troops to shield wall and hold fire till the enemy is about 30 yards(further out if they're really fast) then let loose with Javelins.

I have a mix of Sturgian heavy inf that have the shield/javelins and sword along with my Imperial heavy inf. That initial "loose" of javelins vs an approaching enemy is devastating once you allow them to fire.
 

Icaurs

Regular
M&BWB
+1 for the shield destruction, maybe include throwing axes in that as well

Also, spears should break too!

Spears should NOT break. I HATE seeing people say things like "blocking with a spear is unrealistic it should break when being hit with a sword" this is just not true. or "stabbing with spears should eventually have the shaft break" also just not true. Spears are not made of paper, they arent so easily cut through or snapped, it would take a large blunt force on a STATIC spear to splinter it similarly it would take a heavy cut to a spear while the spear is static to cut through it. If the spear is in motion you will have a very hard time cutting through it or splintering it and attempting to do so can get you killed(due to you rearing up and going for a heavy enough swing to break the spear thus exposing yourself). in order to sunder or cut through a spear youd need to have it perectly stationary and braced so that it cannot move and then take a hard swing at it to sunder. in combat spears are not held like this and are constantly moving see below an attempt to sunder a spear by holding it still without a brace
Not easy. and the person holding the spear isnt moving the spear away from the slice after contact. they are trying to hold it as steady as possible. In order to cut through it youd need someone holding it on the other side as well and then a third person to make a hefty swing at it. - side note. if your in melee and try to grab someone spear so you can sunder it, which is hard to do in itself, expect them to pull the spear back. if you manage to maintain your grip, expect to be pulled straight into a mighty shield to your face (bad idea) Another side note, sundering a spear by bracing it against your shield after a missed lunge can work if you are very fast and predict the lunge properly without getting speared in the face, see this below

EDIT: Keep in mind in the above video the person knows the spear is coming and the spear isnt being thrust fast or retracted, so do actually do this youd need to be very fast and intuitive to capitalise on this. (spears can be retracted very fast)


------ everything between this is educated conjecture--------
Also thrusting long weapons at people CAN make them break, but i would think its more likely that the weapon would impale your opponent(or cut through and displace them leaving your weapon intact) and get stuck than break(causing you to drop the weapon). youd have to charge on horseback into a solid wall with a spear and thrust to try and break it like that. (again your likely to lose grip on the spear before it breaks i imagine, or break your arm rather than the spear, perhaps even throw yourself off your horse from impact. though this is the best way to break a spear or other long weapon)
------------------------ educated conjecture over

keep in mind that jousting lances were DESIGNED to break so if this is what makes you think that long weapons should break on impact then you are mistaken. Jousting lances were designed to break so that there is less chance of severely injuring your opponent. the idea being that if you break your lance on somebody the hit that you delivered would have done substantial damage if it was a REAL lance. (generally jousting lances were hollow, or some other method to make it break rather than penetrate. Also blunt so no penetration)

On foot? SIGNIFICANTLY harder to break your spear from thrusting and striking
 
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BarnardStar

Recruit
As others have said, accuracy against moving targets should get nerfed, that also goes for any projectile weapons at the moment. Try soloing looters with a horse and spear, and then load up Warband and do it. Those rock-throwing swine will almost kill you in Bannerlord, but in Warband you'll barely get scratched.

Javelins should do serious damage, and they should destroy shields. The trade-off should be that they are short-range, you're vulnerable when throwing, and you need a high skill level to be accurate with them.
 

CyberianK

Recruit
@Icaurs
Great post

I would argue that the TheignTrand video fixing the Spear in place to have proper leverage and then putting force at a good vertical angle is pretty much the only way how you can destroy a decent polearm/spear in a single strike.
If you don't have a shield the way would be deflecting the spear into the ground or wall and then fixing and striking it from that vertical angle. Of course in normal combat this would be hard to pull of against a competent spear user.

And also in such a situation instead of striking the enemy weapon you could instead go for a killing blow to the created opening.

In normal combat it would probably require potentially dozens of repeated strikes by very hefty slashing weapons.
And if the shaft is reinforced that makes it almost impossible:
600969-3.jpg
 

pRaX

Sergeant
M&BWBWF&SNWVC
I don't think Javelins, Bows or Caravans whatever should get nerfed right now. Pretty much everything in this game is out of whack or not completed. Many interlinking features are barebones or many don't even exist yet. There is not much point to me in balancing something that will have to be re-adjusted as soon as stuff comes in.

But that's just me.
 

Diavolo

Knight
M&BWB
I recently run towards an enemy with my horse, he threw a javelin and killed it, despite it having allmost full health, so it must have delt around 200 demage, which is absolutely insane in my opinion, especially considering how little demage the horse takes, when you charge into a spear. Furthermore you can easily deal over 100 demage on foot soldiers too with them, no matter how well armored they are.
So yes they should reduce speed bonus from horse, and buff spear damage, and give armor a more percentage based (Or more linear) reduction in damage.

But a head shot with a javelin should be instant kill on most enemies.

If javs deserve a nerf it is more to reduce their ammo. However compared to bows I think they are fine.
 

Fantomen

Regular
WBVC
No nerfs needed IMO. It's true that the stack size is unrealistic as Stromming above points out, but to me a lower stack size would ba a problem in campaign when used by the player.

I could see a small nerf to the speed boost to damage in general though, and bows are definitely OP in campaign. Currently a doomstack of good archers kills anything of equal tier with no or few casualties.

As far as the example in the op, I do think riding full speed into a thrown javelin should one-shot you or your horse, so that specific example is perfectly fine IMO.

I don't like that you can run around with multiple javelins stuck in your shield (or elsewhere), it looks unrealistic and silly. I think if you have javelins sticking out of your shield or body you should stop to remove them or drop your shield, it could just be a quick animation where you knock the javes off your shield with your weapon for example. I had a battle where a long javelin protruded from my hand the entire battle and waved around like a big weightless thing, looked so dumb.
 
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